Natural talent vs Work Ethic | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Natural talent vs Work Ethic

coppertop1

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Gracie has definitely improved her skating under Frank. For all the flack she got for changing her SP, when I saw it at nationals, I liked it! The three preludes was too scratchy and harsh with all the violins. Gracie went to Frank for consistency, and it seems to be working, she's had good results this year. She seems calmer under him.

Shen/Zhao are the poster skaters for hard work, they worked tirelessly to improve, seeing it all pay off in 2010. Also Fumie Suguri, and many Japanese skaters seem to have good work ethic.

Scott Hamilton did not have a great work ethic early in his career, it was his mother's death that woke him up.
 

desertskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
And since Mirai's been mentioned, I'll nominate Ashley for the work ethic group. There's not one thing, per se, that stands out about her skating (except her consistency up until nationals), but I'd bet anything that as we type, she's at the rink busting her rear end to be as ready as she can for Sochi.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Sandhu, Bobek, Bowman, Harding, I and K - but give them a chance who knows all had major talent that was never fully utilized, developed or emerged due to poor work ethic or problems with work ethic. Skating is tough but hey workig gas a wait staff, doctor, lawyer, teacher, domestic engineer etc are all tough. As Gracie admitted on tv h er schedule really wasn't so bad and some of those skaters - not all - aren't exactly living in poverty. I think both Virtue and Moir were driving new Acura's if my sharp eyes were correct. Scott a sports sedan and I think Tessa may have been driving the new RDX personal little suv. Artur Dimitriev was known to take it easy until the skating season and you could see the change in his body. Most skaters are hard workers but the ones I give credit too morso are the ones (often aren't the top skaters for they get sponsorships and more gov't or sport feeration financial support) who went to school and or worked. Michelle, Joannie, Kristi, Jeff Buttle, are all examples of success with hard work though they had to some talent. Some are borne with pure geniousness like Gordeeva and Grinkov, Oksana Baiul, Kostner, Dai, Yuna, Mao, add hard work and they go far.
 

composer

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Just out of curiosity, what exactly qualifies as a lack of work ethic? How many hours are figure skaters supposed to devote to training at each point in the season, and at what point below that does it count as a lack of work ethic? Is it just the hours or does it include attitude in training etc?

I hear certain skaters names tossed about as lacking work ethic, but we never get the details - just that so and so said so and so had a good/bad work ethic. Could it be possible that some skaters are just better at playing the PR game? ( most of us surely would be familiar with that coworker who doesn't actually do much but somehow manages to convince people who do not interact/ work directly with him/ her that s/he is all that and much more).
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
^^^

That's a good question. When I hear of a skater who jumps coaches frequently, I wonder if one of the causes is that they're not willing to meet the coach's demands in terms of work. I wonder if they're looking for some magic formula that will allow them to succeed without substantial effort.

Now, that's just an overall impression, and I know there are plenty of other good reasons for a coaching change. Still, it makes you wonder.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Bobek was known for arguing with her coach and skipping practices.

Bowman would come in hung over (or worse) or wouldn't be seen for days/weeks even though he was scheduled to be training.
 

composer

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
^^^

That's a good question. When I hear of a skater who jumps coaches frequently, I wonder if one of the causes is that they're not willing to meet the coach's demands in terms of work. I wonder if they're looking for some magic formula that will allow them to succeed without substantial effort.

Now, that's just an overall impression, and I know there are plenty of other good reasons for a coaching change. Still, it makes you wonder.


Thank you, that's a good point :)
 

coppertop1

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
^^^

That's a good question. When I hear of a skater who jumps coaches frequently, I wonder if one of the causes is that they're not willing to meet the coach's demands in terms of work. I wonder if they're looking for some magic formula that will allow them to succeed without substantial effort.

Now, that's just an overall impression, and I know there are plenty of other good reasons for a coaching change. Still, it makes you wonder.

It's normal to change coaches to an extent. Many skaters have had two or three, or even four different coaches. Skaters change coaches for many reasons, most common being conflict, or if they're struggling and feel they need a change or for a fresh start. If a skater seems to be changing coaches say ten times, that does make me suspicious. There comes a point where it's not the coach that's the problem, and I do think when they go coach hopping frequently they do want a magic formula, or maybe they're too stubborn to listen so leave. This was the case, it seems, with Mira Leung, she was hard working but she was stubborn and didn't listen to her coach, she was on and off again with Joanne McLeod until 2008 Worlds. She also went with other coaches, what she wanted to find I don't know.

Rafael Arturnyan said that Michelle is the most reliable skater he's ever worked with.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
I agree with Tonto. When a skater changes coaches a bunch of times you have to wonder why! I think when Michelle left Frank she needed a change - and who knows what influence her father had on that. I worry about Adam Rippon at this point. Isn't he on about his 3rd or 4th coach in as many years? I think Artunyan did great things with him this season. I wish I could remember where I read more about Mirai and her work ethic. It might have been an article after she left Frank.

Another person who has such native talent AND a work ethic is Jason Brown. I hope he keeps working as hard as ever even with his current success.
 

penguin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Just out of curiosity, what exactly qualifies as a lack of work ethic? How many hours are figure skaters supposed to devote to training at each point in the season, and at what point below that does it count as a lack of work ethic? Is it just the hours or does it include attitude in training etc?

I hear certain skaters names tossed about as lacking work ethic, but we never get the details - just that so and so said so and so had a good/bad work ethic. Could it be possible that some skaters are just better at playing the PR game? ( most of us surely would be familiar with that coworker who doesn't actually do much but somehow manages to convince people who do not interact/ work directly with him/ her that s/he is all that and much more).

Good point. I do think the "good/bad work ethic" argument is hard to nail down to specifics, because you can't rely purely on how many hours a skater spent on the ice, for instance. There's off-ice work, and disciplined attitude, and mental focus on the training lifestyle, etc., and not all those are measurable. I will say, though, that when you're at the rink you can definitely see which skaters are focused on training, and which ones are just kind of skating around, whiling down the hours because they have to be there. For something like that I do kind of take it on faith when someone with insider knowledge (like Sandra Bezic) says that so-and-so had a flagging work ethic or when Frank Carroll says his student wasn't working hard enough.
 

jace93

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Brian Orser often said that Javier wasn't particularly keen to do run through and training hard in general, but that changed after nice debacle and Yuzuru's move
 

coppertop1

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Brian Orser often said that Javier wasn't particularly keen to do run through and training hard in general, but that changed after nice debacle and Yuzuru's move

Having a rival train with a skater can probably be very motivating.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Can anyone post the Bezic article about Browning please? I am curious.

I don't think anyone ever answered you. The Bezic interview was a video with the Skating Lesson people, David L. and Jenny Kirk. These interviews are very comprehensive and insightful. Bezic is just one person they interviewed; others are Yuka Sato and Frank Carroll. Here's part 1 of Sandra's interview. I can't tell you where any material about Kurt is, but the whole thing is interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNHiTHTZvCM
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
It's not just about hours spent on the ice or doing off ice, but how directed that time is on/off the ice. Mirai had mentioned previously that when she was only able to work with Frank a few days a week that she maybe didn't put the effort in at the LA area rinks that she could have being big fish/little pond...
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Someone asked how much time elite skates trained. Awhile back Ice Network had a list of elite skaters that you could access. Once you pulled up a skater, it provided the amount of ice practice time (peak and off peak). If I remember correctly, many of the skates were listed as "only" being on the ice ~25 hours a week during peak season (non-peak went down to 20 hours). My guess is they spend another 8+ hours or off ice.
 

caseyl23

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
I don't think anyone ever answered you. The Bezic interview was a video with the Skating Lesson people, David L. and Jenny Kirk. These interviews are very comprehensive and insightful. Bezic is just one person they interviewed; others are Yuka Sato and Frank Carroll. Here's part 1 of Sandra's interview. I can't tell you where any material about Kurt is, but the whole thing is interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNHiTHTZvCM

I just listened to the part of the interview where Sandra talks about Kurt, and it's in part two of the interview, around the 6:30 mark. Here's the link for easy access:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ova2RkVhPhY

What she says is that the difference between Olympic champions like Brian Boitano, Kristi Yamaguchi and Tara Lipinski is their training. They came into practice focused day in and trained with the goal of becoming winners - they knew where they wanted to be, they knew what they needed to do to get there and they were single-minded in their goals. Kurt, she said his motivation came from emotion, and that wasn't consistent day-in and day-out. She didn't say it was lack of work ethic as much as his mentality compared to theirs.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I just listened to the part of the interview where Sandra talks about Kurt, and it's in part two of the interview, around the 6:30 mark. Here's the link for easy access:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ova2RkVhPhY

What she says is that the difference between Olympic champions like Brian Boitano, Kristi Yamaguchi and Tara Lipinski is their training. They came into practice focused day in and trained with the goal of becoming winners - they knew where they wanted to be, they knew what they needed to do to get there and they were single-minded in their goals. Kurt, she said his motivation came from emotion, and that wasn't consistent day-in and day-out. She didn't say it was lack of work ethic as much as his mentality compared to theirs.

Thanks so much! Sandra's commentary rings completely true. Kurt obviously cared about his skating all along and also clearly felt an obligation to his family and to Canadian fans; he wasn't just being lackadaisical with his training. And certainly he has matured from then until now. You don't maintain your skills for decades in a pro career without constant work. And you don't entertain audiences night after night on tour without giving your all both in practice and in performance.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If I remember correctly, many of the skates were listed as "only" being on the ice ~25 hours a week during peak season (non-peak went down to 20 hours). My guess is they spend another 8+ hours or off ice.

40 hours a week on ice may have been more common for hardworking competitors who had access to enough ice when they needed to spend at least half their time training school figures. After figures went away, it seems that more time is spent in off-ice training (dance classes, weight training, etc.). But it's still training time.
 

Becki

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Brian Orser often said that Javier wasn't particularly keen to do run through and training hard in general, but that changed after nice debacle and Yuzuru's move

Yuzuru is also a natural talent with strong work ethics. Prior to training at the Cricket Club, he was only able to train 15 hours a week or less (can't remember the number....) with no off ice training but he was able to win a Jr WC and many other international competitions.
 

SimplyAFan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Mention of Jason Brown brings up an interesting thought. It seems that "natural talent" means physical capabilities in most cases. But with Jason it also means natural performance abilities. Nobody can learn the level of perfomance skills. And as I've read different places, he works hard so that he can consistently display his natural talents. Seems like you really need three things (two kinds of natural talent plus work ethic) to be a well-rounded successful skater.
 
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