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Thread: Question about Elena Liashenko and triple loop

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    Question about Elena Liashenko and triple loop

    Hi, I was thinking today about Peggy Fleming's comment about Elena Liashenko not even attempting a triple loop in her free skate. She plans two triple Lutzes and two triple flips but does it hurt her in the judges' eyes by not attempting a certain type of jump?

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    It could be that she is having minor hip problems, and the loop jump uses it's force from the hip. The toe pick jumps are just an assist to ease the struggle of getting the hips to rotate.

    The salchow is a crotch jump; to toe off with a salchow will give one a flip. To toe off with a loop will give one (what we call) a Toe.

    There is such a thing as a toeless lutz but no one does it - super difficult.

    Liashenko is an excellent jumper. She know what's best for her.

    Joe

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    On last Euros, Idora Hegel talked with our reporter during the last group and she said thet she wanted Elena to win a medal, but that it is not going to be easy because Elena has problems with 3 loop. She just can t do it. it is allways 2 or she fells down. It is probobly connected with her hip problem.

    dunja

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    AFAIK the loop has always been Liashenko's nemesis jump. So I think that might be a reason why she doesn't even attempt it, rather than injury.

    It might hurt Liashenko under the old 6.0-system (in case that the other ladies will show the full range of jumps at WC in Dortmund), but not under CoP. - That's one thing I really dislike about CoP, it's not fair towards those skaters who have full command of all jump elements (and of course practise all of them for that purpose), if the jugdges don't award you for that. - I think it's easier to repeat those jumps you can do well and leaving out the harder ones, than to show the whole variety of jumps and even to risk a fall on a more difficult one. :(
    Last edited by Evdokia; 02-15-2004 at 08:23 AM.

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    That's one thing I really dislike about CoP, it's not fair towards those skaters who have full command of all jump elements (and of course practise all of them for that purpose), if the jugdges don't award you for that. - I think it's easier to repeat those jumps you can do well and leaving out the harder ones, than to show the whole variety of jumps and even to risk a fall on a more difficult one.

    On the flip side of the coin, I think the COP will be beneficial to those with injuries that are exacerbated by certain elements. Liashenko is a terrific skater with or without a 3 loop, and if she is able to salvage her physical well being because she doesn't feel pressured to have it or bust, then I think that is promising. So many skaters have injured their very young bodies just so they can match the Michelle's and the Sasha's, that I think it is great that the COP will allow for them to compete without those elements. Add to that the fact that their careers could potentially be lengthened dramatically, and I think we are all winners!

    Canuck

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    It's not as if she never landed the 3loop in comp. She landed a fantastic one, perfectly clean and smooth, in the 2000 Euros FS. Now though, she doesn't even attempt the jump in practice at all. :(

    TV

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    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Evdokia
    That's one thing I really dislike about CoP, it's not fair towards those skaters who have full command of all jump elements (and of course practise all of them for that purpose), if the jugdges don't award you for that.
    True, but here is what's interesting: if a skater is to do the maximum - 5 standalone triples, and 2 triple-triple combos, she must do at least one of each jump.

    Also, if ISU wants to encourage skaters to do all jumps, they could introduce that rule. After all, they already have that with Axel -- one must have an axel-like jump in the program. Or, at the very least, a deduction can made in the "choreography" if not all types of jumps are attempted.

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    Originally posted by Evdokia
    That's one thing I really dislike about CoP, it's not fair towards those skaters who have full command of all jump elements (and of course practise all of them for that purpose), if the jugdges don't award you for that. - I think it's easier to repeat those jumps you can do well and leaving out the harder ones, than to show the whole variety of jumps and even to risk a fall on a more difficult one. :(
    Under CoP, the 3L has the 3rd highest point value, and since less than a handful of women have the 3A, making the 3L effectively the second highest point value for a solo jump. If a skater does a less difficult jump in its place, she will receive fewer base points. Given how no other Ladies skater did the 3S with as much spring, height, and in-and-out flow as Julia Sebestyen at Euros would counter the argument that it's so much harder to do a mediocre 3F -- it is to do a superior 3F -- not to mention how footwork and variations on entrance affect the difficulty of an "easier" jump. Also, in order to maximize the number of triples -- i.e., two triple-triple passes -- the skater must do one combo ending in a 3L and another ending in a 3T, because they are the only two jumps that can be done at the end of a combination, as their take-off edges match the landing edge of the other jumps. Not doing a 3L limits the skater to a single 3/3. More and more Ladies are practicing mulitple 3/3's, so this is not just theoretical.

    If a skater does four instead of five different triples, she can also do two combo passes by repeating two as the first jump of a combo and two as the second jump in the combo (or not). Under CoP the total difficulty for a 3F/2T is greater than the total difficulty for a 3L, so for two skaters who have the same program, except for one having a 3L and another having a 3F/2T, the skater with the combo will have a higher point value with the same execution, because in general, a 3F/2T is more difficult than an 3L, and there aren't separate rules for different skaters. No one would argue that a 3S in general is harder than a 3Z in general because Kristi Yamaguchi had problems with a 3S.

    Under OBO each judge gets to decide how to assign relative difficulty of the two elements. There is no rule to say that a skater who leaves one triple out and replaces the element with a combo should receive less credit. So there's no guarantee that any given judge has an internal rule that says, "3L is harder than 3F/2T if skater hasn't already done a 3L, but 3T/2T is harder than a 3L if the skater has attempted the 3L."

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    Originally posted by sk8tngcanuck
    On the flip side of the coin, I think the COP will be beneficial to those with injuries that are exacerbated by certain elements. Liashenko is a terrific skater with or without a 3 loop, and if she is able to salvage her physical well being because she doesn't feel pressured to have it or bust, then I think that is promising. So many skaters have injured their very young bodies just so they can match the Michelle's and the Sasha's, that I think it is great that the COP will allow for them to compete without those elements. Add to that the fact that their careers could potentially be lengthened dramatically, and I think we are all winners!
    Canuck
    Though the loop might be a hard jump for the hip, I can't imagine a DOUBLE loop to be harder for Liashenko's hip than her triple triple combinations. - So if you can't do a triple jump, do a double one, but at least show somehow command of it. It's not fair for other ladies, which have all triple jumps to get e.g. deductions for flutzing/liping, when other skaters would be allowed to simply leave out a particular jump, which might cause them problems.
    BTW I haven't heard of many skaters dealing with physical problems due to one specific jump (especially not with double ones ), but moreover because of the quad (which we will see with CoP as well) and triple-triple combos (which won't be abandoned by CoP too).:(

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    Originally posted by Evdokia
    Though the loop might be a hard jump for the hip, I can't imagine a DOUBLE loop to be harder for Liashenko's hip than her triple triple combinations. - So if you can't do a triple jump, do a double one, but at least show somehow command of it. It's not fair for other ladies, which have all triple jumps to get e.g. deductions for flutzing/liping, when other skaters would be allowed to simply leave out a particular jump, which might cause them problems.
    How does flutzing/lipping show a skater can do all the jumps? It shows the opposite, it shows that they can't do the jump properly and are too lazy to do so. I don't know why a skater should be forced to do a jump. This issue doesn't vex me nearly as much as flutzing or lipping. If you are going to preach that skaters should be forced to do all the jumps, then I don't know why you don't think they should be forced to perform true lutzes and flips as well.

    TV

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    Originally posted by thvudragon
    If you are going to preach that skaters should be forced to do all the jumps, then I don't know why you don't think they should be forced to perform true lutzes and flips as well.
    TV
    But that's my point, cause I think it's quite right that flutzers and lippers get deductions on an inproper jump, but to me that's still better, than not showing/learning that jump at all. - However if it will get general line that skaters can "hide" weak jumps, then all the flutzers could simply leave this jump out, right? No more reason to even try to get proper technique, if you can just leave out that jump! So basically my fear is that with this tendency a lot of skaters might have only three or four different jump elements in a few years, but still place on the podium. - To me that would be e.g. like a skate without spinning (anyone can imagine a skater who has problems with spins just not doing them?). I really don't think that skaters should be forced to do all jumps as triples (or quads sometime in future?), if it's bad for their health, but I also think that there isn't any (health-related-) argument against doing them as doubles, or maybe you could just give more credits to those skaters who have a "full range of jumps" (cause that's more difficult to train)? - I still remember some events in the early nintees when we saw a lot of different jump elements (like tano flips, inside axels and so on), which aren't performed any longer and I think it would be very sad if other ones would disappear too.:(

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    Originally posted by Evdokia
    But that's my point, cause I think it's quite right that flutzers and lippers get deductions on an inproper jump, but to me that's still better, than not showing/learning that jump at all. - However if it will get general line that skaters can "hide" weak jumps, then all the flutzers could simply leave this jump out, right? No more reason to even try to get proper technique, if you can just leave out that jump!
    - A skater would be stupid to leave out a flutz, because the jump is practically canon now. If you don't do it, you're not going to get good marks. The same isn't really applicable to a lesser jump like the loop I don't think. Also, it is a "free skate." The supposed concept is that the skater can do what he/she/they want in the parameters to maximize their marks.

    Originally posted by Evdokia
    So basically my fear is that with this tendency a lot of skaters might have only three or four different jump elements in a few years, but still place on the podium. - To me that would be e.g. like a skate without spinning (anyone can imagine a skater who has problems with spins just not doing them?). I really don't think that skaters should be forced to do all jumps as triples (or quads sometime in future?), if it's bad for their health, but I also think that there isn't any (health-related-) argument against doing them as doubles, or maybe you could just give more credits to those skaters who have a "full range of jumps" (cause that's more difficult to train)? - I still remember some events in the early nintees when we saw a lot of different jump elements (like tano flips, inside axels and so on), which aren't performed any longer and I think it would be very sad if other ones would disappear too.:(
    - In the 6.0 system this would be easy, but under the CoP, skaters have limits on their jumping passes, so I think this would be impractical. If you are again forcing skaters into stricter rules, it becomes less and less of a free skate. Also, I don't think we'll be seeing skaters leaving out spins, because under 6.0, there's a minimum of 4, and under CoP, you would be stupid to just lose those points, and get the deduction for not doing a spin in only one position.

    I don't see why skaters should be forced to perform the whole canon of jumps (toe, sal, loop, flip, lutz, axel).

    TV

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    Originally posted by thvudragon
    I don't see why skaters should be forced to perform the whole canon of jumps (toe, sal, loop, flip, lutz, axel).

    TV
    I think it's because the top guns are going for the World Championship in their sport, and these are the elements that determine whether or not they have mastered the necessary athletic foundations of modern competitive ice skating..

    Mathman

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    Originally posted by Mathman
    I think it's because the top guns are going for the World Championship in their sport, and these are the elements that determine whether or not they have mastered the necessary athletic foundations of modern competitive ice skating..
    But do you think it should really be a requirement? It's hardly a free skate if you are going to force skaters to perform these jumps. If a judge decides to take deductions because the skater does not perform the canon, so be it, but I don't think it should really be required.

    TV

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    I guess I didn't read the whole thread carefully. Is it really required to do all of the jumps? Or is is just that you have to do them all to get the highest possible score (under the CoP) or the greatest amount of credit from the judges (under 6.0 scoring)?

    What if there were a contest and nobody did all six jumps. Would they all be disqualified, with no winner?

    I don't think we need to be intimidated by the word "free." To me, it's like if you go for the decathalon championship but decide to leave out the pole vault. Yes, that's very creative, but sorry, no points for that element.

    MM

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