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Thread: Question about Elena Liashenko and triple loop

  1. #16
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    Thanks everyone for the replies!

  2. #17
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mathman
    I guess I didn't read the whole thread carefully. Is it really required to do all of the jumps? Or is is just that you have to do them all to get the highest possible score (under the CoP) or the greatest amount of credit from the judges (under 6.0 scoring)?

    What if there were a contest and nobody did all six jumps. Would they all be disqualified, with no winner?
    Under CoP, the only jump that must be done in the Free Skate is an "axel type jump". One "victim" of this has been Yoshie Onda at Cup of China. Her 3T was not counted, even though it did not violate Zayak. Why? because she hadn't done an axel yet by that point, and she had already done 6 jumps. Then, she did do a 2A, but it was not counted either. Why? becasue it was her 8th jump (counting the 3T she did not get credit for). A real travesty IMHO, since I don't understand how they could have counted the jump that she could not have gotten any credit for!

    Anyway, as you can see not doing an axel does not disqualify a sakter, but there is a penalty. As to all other jumps -- there are not requirements as to which ones skaters must do.

  3. #18
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    Originally posted by Ptichka
    Under CoP, the only jump that must be done in the Free Skate is an "axel type jump". One "victim" of this has been Yoshie Onda at Cup of China. Her 3T was not counted, even though it did not violate Zayak. Why? because she hadn't done an axel yet by that point, and she had already done 6 jumps. Then, she did do a 2A, but it was not counted either. Why? becasue it was her 8th jump (counting the 3T she did not get credit for). A real travesty IMHO, since I don't understand how they could have counted the jump that she could not have gotten any credit for!
    In Onda's case, it does make sense. She attempted to do a 3t/3t sequence, but had too many steps in between, so it was counted as 2 seperate jumping passes, breaking the Zayak Rule (half of which is pointless now, as phantom combos are being created). So, the 7th jumping pass was her 3toe, and it was not counted because an axel type jump is required, and since the 3toe was not an axel type jump, it was not counted. She then did the 2axel as her 8th pass, but since you're only allowed 7 in ladies, it was not counted as well. It was Yoshie's fault for poor jump placement.

    TV

  4. #19
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    TVUDragon, I know the rationale for this. I just thought that a jump that got no credit in the first place (the last toe) should not have counted towards the jump limit. It's just a question of getting the exact working of the rule. And, since computer is used for CoP, of translating those rules into exact algorithms.

  5. #20
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    Originally posted by Ptichka
    Under CoP, the only jump that must be done in the Free Skate is an "axel type jump". One "victim" of this has been Yoshie Onda at Cup of China. Her 3T was not counted, even though it did not violate Zayak. Why? because she hadn't done an axel yet by that point, and she had already done 6 jumps. Then, she did do a 2A, but it was not counted either. Why? becasue it was her 8th jump (counting the 3T she did not get credit for). A real travesty IMHO, since I don't understand how they could have counted the jump that she could not have gotten any credit for!

    Anyway, as you can see not doing an axel does not disqualify a sakter, but there is a penalty. As to all other jumps -- there are not requirements as to which ones skaters must do.
    Pitdchka = Interesting post. If I understand you correctly, there is a time limit for the 2A or 3A to be presented?

    My question is how astute are the judges to realize all this? If the troika is working (I hope) one of them maybe counting jumps and the timing of the jumps. He then must alert the judges to cease marking certain jumps.

    Am I following this correctly?

    Joe

  6. #21
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    No, there's no rule requiring that any jumps be done within a certain amount of time in minutes/seconds.

    The problem seems to be with how the computer program applies the rules that 1) ladies may do a maximum of 7 jump elements and 2) one of those must include an axel-type jump.

    More reasonable programming would allow it to not-count in the ump-element limit any jump that has to receive 0 credit for instance because it's a repeat non-combo triple or because there was only one jump slot left and no required axel had been performed yet.

    Similarly, more reasonable programming could give credit for the first jump in an extra combination even if the allowed number of jump combos had already been passed. (Plyushenko at GPF)

  7. #22
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    Originally posted by Ptichka
    TVUDragon, I know the rationale for this. I just thought that a jump that got no credit in the first place (the last toe) should not have counted towards the jump limit. It's just a question of getting the exact working of the rule. And, since computer is used for CoP, of translating those rules into exact algorithms.
    Ohh, okay, my fault for not understanding your post :D.

    The rule states that such a jump will still count as an element, that is why it was counted, but given a zero value. I actually agree with the rule. Skaters should be smarter in planning their programs.

    TV

  8. #23
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    Joe, even though the jumps do NOT have to be performed within a certain time limit, there is the whole thing about the jumps done in the 2nd half of the program getting 10% more credit. As to what the judges vs. the "troika" do -- the judges actually have to grade all elements that are executed regardless of whether they will be counted. Also, "troika" does not have to count jumps or time anything -- that's what the computer is there for. So, you sometimes get the following: troika enters the jump (for example that non-counted 2A from Onda's program), judges mark it, and THEN the computer says -- sorry guys, it's all for nothing, I'm not gonna count this. In fact, if you look at some of the Grand Prix scores, you see that all those non-counted jumps have the judges' marks next to them.

  9. #24
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    Thanks Ptchka - It's definitely clearer. That computer, I wonder if it could pull a Hal?

    Joe

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