Girls - 2014 JR. Russian Championships

zamboni step said:

All of the top Russian Ladies skating right now other than Mishin students, Maria and Proklova have pretty poor double axel technique.

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Sotnikova actually has the best 2A from them all, with her curved axel exit and her 2A-3T is really big and sticked in her landings
I would say its her money combo as commentators always appreciate her 2A-3T

the worst axels
well I agree most are
Medvedeva, Radinova, Sotskova, Pogorilaya - axel like a hop with no flow at all
an issue with long legs ?

sky_fly20 said:

Sotnikova actually has the best 2A from them all, with her curved axel exit and her 2A-3T is really big and sticked in her landings
I would say its her money combo as commentators always appreciate her 2A-3T

the worst axels
well I agree most are
Medvedeva, Radinova, Sotskova, Pogorilaya - axel like a hop with no flow at all
an issue with long legs ?

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Actually Sotnikova has a pretty scary technique. Sometimes she keeps it nice and straight with the curved entry which gives you a beautiful flow on the landing, her 2A-3Ts this year have always been like this, and they're the best in the world when she does it right. But sometimes she jumps too far into the circle which is very prone to over-rotation. Look at both her 2As at the 2011 Cup of China FS, 2012 Russian Nationals FS, 2011 Golden Spin of Zagreb she fell on one in the short and one in the FS. 2012 Youth Olympics she got -GOE on one in the FS. The obviously there's all the shaky ones at 2013 Euros and Worlds in the FS. She has a high risk, high reward technique, it also doesn't help she has no skid.

Sotskova's 2A isn't bad, it's just not exceptionally good either. Also I'd say Sakhanovich deserves a spot on the list, the spread eagle is a clever way of disguising she's terrified of that jump! It wouldn't be so bad if she were as fearless as Julia going in (the technique isn't good but if you go into it without fear it helps), but she stalks it. Long legs are particularly painful to have on axel yes, but I also think their technique is pretty bad anyway. Especially Pogorilaya, to think she was doing two 2A-3Ts during the JGP circuit last year is scary.

zamboni step said:

She has a high risk, high reward technique, it also doesn't help she has no skid.

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And I honestly don't see how that is so bad. Risky isn't necessarily bad, especially if it might translate to something like the best 2A-3T combo in the world.
And why would she have to skid? It would stabilize the jump, I guess, but I wouldn't consider it bad technique (like Yunas 3T in her combinations or Hanyus 3Lz don't have the usual pre-rotation). The worst thing about the majority of the 2As of the young russians like Lipnitskaya, Radionova or Medvedeva, IMO, is that they don't really step up into the jump. It looks like they'd fall into it or something and the jump doesn't really get up into the air. Sotnikovas 2A has plenty of heigth (and the ice coverage looked better than that of some men's 3As at TEB!), and she gets the rotation in easily. Her technique is far from textbook, but especially compared to the majority of the other russian girls, it's pretty good.

The only girl whose technique looks really good to me is Proklova. Her jumping technique overall looks really sound. She's got all the basics to still be around after puberty: technique, step up into her jumps, good basic skating, speed, musicality, and some nice extras like gorgeous lines, good transitions and charisma (despite the fact that she's tiiiiiiiny!). I think she should beat all of the other youngster right now in PCS, Sotskova ans Sakhanovich too.

Li'Kitsu said:

And I honestly don't see how that is so bad. Risky isn't necessarily bad, especially if it might translate to something like the best 2A-3T combo in the world.
And why would she have to skid? It would stabilize the jump, I guess, but I wouldn't consider it bad technique (like Yunas 3T in her combinations or Hanyus 3Lz don't have the usual pre-rotation). The worst thing about the majority of the 2As of the young russians like Lipnitskaya, Radionova or Medvedeva, IMO, is that they don't really step up into the jump. It looks like they'd fall into it or something and the jump doesn't really get up into the air. Sotnikovas 2A has plenty of heigth (and the ice coverage looked better than that of some men's 3As at TEB!), and she gets the rotation in easily. Her technique is far from textbook, but especially compared to the majority of the other russian girls, it's pretty good.

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It's not so bad, I just don't think it's the best of all the Russian's. It also costs her sometimes, such as the UR on her 2A-3T at worlds or the total lack of a 3T at the Youth Olympics, Cup of China 2011 and both GPs last year. I'm not flaying her alive for it, I'm just saying it's not totally great.

Also Adelina doesn't have the confidence Yu-Na or even Yuzuru have in their jumps so when the stability in the technique isn't there, it you have to find it through trial and error. Which she did, I'm an Adelina fan, which is what made me notice the technique, I find myself holding my breath when she goes into a 2A.

Li'Kitsu said:

The only girl whose technique looks really good to me is Proklova. Her jumping technique overall looks really sound. She's got all the basics to still be around after puberty: technique, step up into her jumps, good basic skating, speed, musicality, and some nice extras like gorgeous lines, good transitions and charisma (despite the fact that she's tiiiiiiiny!). I think she should beat all of the other youngster right now in PCS, Sotskova ans Sakhanovich too.

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I love Proklova but her tininess scares me, her jumps are kind of small (but so is she so hopefully they'll grow with her) and she sometimes has a problem checking her jumps. Her speed and lack of hesitation going into jumps is encouraging though, and her 2A technique is the best of the Juniors followed by maybe Ogoreltseva or Sotskova.

Also, looking at Sakhanovich's jumps, they've improved since the JGP circuit, or even Senior Nationals, they used to be very shaky on the landing of the 3F-3T, but her 3Lz-3T looks controlled enough. I don't she bends her knees to make up for lack of height on the jumps, because they're pretty big actually, and she uses her knees well, the perfect example being the pop she has on her 1/2L, the flow coming out of her jumps is decent and isn't what's costing her GOE normally, it's the shaky landings with poor posture, which are improving constantly. I used to think Sakhanovich was doomed to join the likes of Caroline Zhang, but now she actually has a chance.

zamboni step said:

It's not so bad, I just don't think it's the best of all the Russian's. It also costs her sometimes, such as the UR on her 2A-3T at worlds or the total lack of a 3T at the Youth Olympics, Cup of China 2011 and both GPs last year. I'm not flaying her alive for it, I'm just saying it's not totally great.

Also Adelina doesn't have the confidence Yu-Na or even Yuzuru have in their jumps so when the stability in the technique isn't there, it you have to find it through trial and error. Which she did, I'm an Adelina fan, which is what made me notice the technique, I find myself holding my breath when she goes into a 2A.

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I didn't mean to say her technique was one of the best It's just that you hear people saying how supposedly awful Adelinas technique on pretty much every jump is, and I'm not getting it. The only really shaky jump is her 3F, the Lutz is a flutz, but it looks 'stable' otherwise. Her Salchow and Loop are fine. You mention a lot of competitions from the last seasons, but I think her Axel did improve this season, and not just in consistency. The main part is knowing what you have to improve and she's getting there. She's never going to have textbook technique, but the confidence is slowly building up

I love Proklova but her tininess scares me, her jumps are kind of small (but so is she so hopefully they'll grow with her) and she sometimes has a problem checking her jumps. Her speed and lack of hesitation going into jumps is encouraging though, and her 2A technique is the best of the Juniors followed by maybe Ogoreltseva or Sotskova.

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I suprised myself by not being scared because of her heigth, haha. Sometime the jumps really grow with time (Radionoas look a little bigger this season than last) and I think Proklovas jumps actually have good heigth measured in comparison to her tininess. There's also the possibility that she'll just stay small or very slender, nobody can know that for now.
The last skater though I was sure would make it trough puberty is Tuktamysheva - big jumps with perfect technique. And now she's pretty much nowhere. It's probably a mental problem tough hwell:

Also, looking at Sakhanovich's jumps, they've improved since the JGP circuit, or even Senior Nationals, they used to be very shaky on the landing of the 3F-3T, but her 3Lz-3T looks controlled enough. I don't she bends her knees to make up for lack of height on the jumps, because they're pretty big actually, and she uses her knees well, the perfect example being the pop she has on her 1/2L, the flow coming out of her jumps is decent and isn't what's costing her GOE normally, it's the shaky landings with poor posture, which are improving constantly. I used to think Sakhanovich was doomed to join the likes of Caroline Zhang, but now she actually has a chance.

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But jumps can be big and still underrotated, it's the same for Nagasu or Murakami. I think she bends her knees to make up for a lack of rotation. I don't want to talk her down, she has a lot of good qualities to her skating and good spring and heigth on her jumps, but her jump landings scare me somehow. When I saw her last season, I think her landings were better too, so maybe this is still a problem because she had a growth spurt before this season or something like that.

zamboni step said:

Especially Pogorilaya, to think she was doing two 2A-3Ts during the JGP circuit last year is scary.

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6 2A+3T+2T in 7 last season's competitions (except JWC), +1.12, +1.1, +1.0, +0.6, +0.4 and +0.7 GOEs.

Polycon said:

6 2A+3T+2T in 7 last season's competitions (except JWC), +1.12, +1.1, +1.0, +0.6, +0.4 and +0.7 GOEs.

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Yes, but last year she was not bailing out of them as she was this season at GP events. It may be that she has grown since then and it felt different... or she started doing something differently. A tiny mistake crept in and the consequences were huge.

zamboni step said:

Sakhanovich may have softer upper body movement but it has less relevance to the music, and her choreography has less coherence in terms of a proper structure as well as less detail and less of a concept than Sotskova's. I also find Sotskova's lines and transitions to be better. I agree Sakhanovich has a more interesting jump layout in the short and in the free I don't find her jumping passes to be as cluster bombed as Miki's, despite the fact it's 30 seconds shorter. If we're going to talk about backs, Sakhanovich does have quite jarring posture on the landing of her jumps.

Sakhanovich deserves higher marks for SS and close to equal marks for IN. But everything else I believe Sotskova is better at right now in terms of PCS.

This is coming from someone who prefers Sakhanovich as a skater. Also, what about Proklova?

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Thanks for an interesting discussion. I might have focused too much on the negative aspects of Sotskova's skating and failed to notice anything else. I'll try to watch her again with an open mind.

hanca said:

Yes, but last year she was not bailing out of them as she was this season at GP events. It may be that she has grown since then and it felt different... or she started doing something differently. A tiny mistake crept in and the consequences were huge.

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It's possible the issue is mental and that she got into this kind of vicious circle where she's really worried of making a mistake again on the axel, so she's very tense and cautious approaching it and then of course mistakes happen.