Page 11 of 13 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast
Results 151 to 165 of 188

Thread: What the Russians say

  1. #151
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Falling-again!-at an ice rink near you!
    Posts
    2,210
    I'm not sure what your definition of discrimination is, but any time a government passes a law that targets a specific group to deny them the same rights and privileges enjoyed by the majority of its people, that's a pretty textbook case of discrimination. Whether or not that particular law is enforced regularly or not.

    But I thank you for the civilized discussion. It is a nice change of pace from being branded a Russian-hater which, alas, has been the case in the past here.

  2. #152
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,224
    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    I'm not sure what your definition of discrimination is, but any time a government passes a law that targets a specific group to deny them the same rights and privileges enjoyed by the majority of its people, that's a pretty textbook case of discrimination. Whether or not that particular law is enforced regularly or not.
    And it's not just denying rights, it's the persecution that goes with it. Whether the fines or imprisonment are carried out is something we will never actually have a legitimate record of -- of COURSE Russia will say "Oh, nobody's actually being fined or imprisoned, except well, the ones we don't tell you about." The greater issue is that it's part of law and these punishments are stipulated within the law. As mentioned, that establishes a sense of stigma as well as is a blatant attempt to stifle any constructive conversation or discourse without it being brashly dismissed and disparaged as "propaganda" and intimidating people into keeping their mouths shut.

  3. #153
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,224
    A major study conducted by University of Melbourne researchers has concluded that same-sex parents actually raise children slightly better than straight couples.

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/14/635/abstract

  4. #154
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Falling-again!-at an ice rink near you!
    Posts
    2,210
    The Melbourne study has its flaws. It's a small sampling of self-reporting parents, so there is always the chance of bias in the self-reporting. To me what is the most interesting finding of the study doesn't concern sexual orientation, but gender roles. LGBT parents did not follow traditional gender roles; the person best suited for a particular aspect of parenting and maintaining the family did that particular aspect. The heterosexual parents, on the other hand, were much more likely to follow traditional gender roles, even if a particular partner wasn't as well-suited as the other might be. Gee, having the best person do the job, regardless of their gender. Now there's a revolutionary thought...

    And just to show that Americans can be as stupidly discriminatory as anyone else, Mississippi's odious gay segregation bill is now the law of the state. Yes, it is now legally permissible for shop owners in Mississippi to refuse to serve gay customers if they have a religious objection to doing so.
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...ruck_down.html
    Welcome to the new era of Gay Crow Laws.

  5. #155
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,224
    It's absolutely disgusting. I guess they'll also have the right to refuse Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, etc. People would be outraged these days if someone was refused because of their race. Just give it another couple of years and the fossilized bigots will eventually die out, and their (hopefully unbrainwashed) kids will be a better example of common decency and anti-discrimination.

  6. #156
    Yuzulia & Ruslena Team Alba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Milan
    Posts
    4,002
    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    But in general I would agree that the Russian population at large is not ready yet to think of the LGBT people as "normal". I would not name it discrimination though.
    These things needs time and it's a long process. Russia has a long history of dictatorship etc., I get that.
    The West cannot pretend a quick change that concerns many aspects of civil society, in these countries.
    Even in Italy many are not so ready and we have a lot of problems regarding this issue, thanks to the Vatican as well.
    But the problem is when a government reinforce this attitude and culture with laws.
    That is discrimination.

  7. #157
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    416
    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    These things needs time and it's a long process. Russia has a long history of dictatorship etc., I get that.
    The West cannot pretend a quick change that concerns many aspects of civil society, in these countries.
    Even in Italy many are not so ready and we have a lot of problems regarding this issue, thanks to the Vatican as well.
    But the problem is when a government reinforce this attitude and culture with laws.
    That is discrimination.
    IMO the topic was artificially boosted last year. In the West to discredit Sochi Olympics, in Russia to find some basis for Putin's support which started to wane. Then both sides found much better ground - poor Ukraine. Now for the West Russia is once again an "evil empire". Putin's public approval in Russia is all times high. LGBT topic is completely forgotten at least here. In fact, I guess, nothing has changed for the better or for the worse.

  8. #158
    That's how you get ants MalloryArcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Park Avenue
    Posts
    101
    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    IMO the topic was artificially boosted last year. In the West to discredit Sochi Olympics, in Russia to find some basis for Putin's support which started to wane. Then both sides found much better ground - poor Ukraine. Now for the West Russia is once again an "evil empire". Putin's public approval in Russia is all times high. LGBT topic is completely forgotten at least here. In fact, I guess, nothing has changed for the better or for the worse.
    One thing I guess you can say about Russian public attitudes and media reporting, on almost every issue, is that Russians will buy almost any conspiracy theory they can think of. The Sochi Olympics could have been discredited from a number of angles, most notably the rampant cost-overruns and corruption, also the proximity of Sochi to disputed territory in the Caucasus. The LGBT aspect was indeed one of many many problems. And yet, it gets undue focus from Russians as some kind of tool to discredit Russia and its right to be praised and adored for its wonderful Olympics. Gurl please. Explain to me why the West would benefit from discrediting the Sochi games?

  9. #159
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    416
    Quote Originally Posted by MalloryArcher View Post
    One thing I guess you can say about Russian public attitudes and media reporting, on almost every issue, is that Russians will buy almost any conspiracy theory they can think of. The Sochi Olympics could have been discredited from a number of angles, most notably the rampant cost-overruns and corruption, also the proximity of Sochi to disputed territory in the Caucasus. The LGBT aspect was indeed one of many many problems. And yet, it gets undue focus from Russians as some kind of tool to discredit Russia and its right to be praised and adored for its wonderful Olympics. Gurl please. Explain to me why the West would benefit from discrediting the Sochi games?
    The question on question, what do you know about Russian public attitudes to make judgements like that? You live here, you are a frequent participant of Russian forums? Or you base your opinion on Western media reporting?
    Why would Western public care of cost overruns and corruption as a reason to make a decision whether to go to Sochi or not? These are not their costs and not their corruption. On the other hand falsified security issues (it was the safest Olympics) and LGBT issues did play the role so that we had just a fraction of planned foreign visitors. Which btw was good for me as an average Russian fan as otherwise I would not get tickets for FS.

    Why would the West benefit? Ask the West. Putin became too self confident - he tried to teach Obama lessons placing an article in NYT or WP after US failure in Syria. The leader of the free world apparently was not happy. That's my own conspiracy theory. And the basis for it is obvious: Moscow games boycott in 1980 and LA game boycott in 1984. Olympics are a part of the worldwide politics. There was a lot of negativity in the Western press - hard to argue with that. While the games themselves were terrific - everybody who I met on the street smiled. If it were issues they were blown out of proportion. And corruption or not corruption we have superb roads now in Sochi.

  10. #160
    That's how you get ants MalloryArcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Park Avenue
    Posts
    101
    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    The question on question, what do you know about Russian public attitudes to make judgements like that? You live here, you are a frequent participant of Russian forums? Or you base your opinion on Western media reporting?
    Why would Western public care of cost overruns and corruption as a reason to make a decision whether to go to Sochi or not? These are not their costs and not their corruption. On the other hand falsified security issues (it was the safest Olympics) and LGBT issues did play the role so that we had just a fraction of planned foreign visitors. Which btw was good for me as an average Russian fan as otherwise I would not get tickets for FS.

    Why would the West benefit? Ask the West. Putin became too self confident - he tried to teach Obama lessons placing an article in NYT or WP after US failure in Syria. The leader of the free world apparently was not happy. That's my own conspiracy theory. And the basis for it is obvious: Moscow games boycott in 1980 and LA game boycott in 1984. Olympics are a part of the worldwide politics. There was a lot of negativity in the Western press - hard to argue with that. While the games themselves were terrific - everybody who I met on the street smiled. If it were issues they were blown out of proportion. And corruption or not corruption we have superb roads now in Sochi.
    OK i am getting the feeling I should disengage now, this sounds like a load of nonsense. But to answer your specific questions - I get my knowledge of Russian attitudes from a variety of sources. One is certainly the reporting of Western media outlets from their Russia-based correspondents. And they all say the same thing, irrespective of the ideological standpoint of their publications - Russians believe the most ludicrous conspiracy theories about the West, and foreign journalists are treated as CIA spies almost everywhere they go. Specifically, I refer to journalists like Shuan Walker (The Guardian and The Independent, UK), Julia Ioffe (New Republic, USA), Miriam Elder (The Guardian, UK), Luke Harding (The Guardian, UK), Ellen Berry (NY Times, USA) and others. I also get a lot of my info from the many many Russians who live in my community. It's amazing how many Russians are leaving Russia for the West, considering how much better Russia is supposed to be. I think I can glean a fairly extensive view of how issues are reported and viewed in Russia and by Russians from these sources. Plus also, the obvious point - I state that ridiculous conspiracy theories exist in Russia, and you come at me with a ridiculous conspiracy theory about Syria. So there's that.

    The end question, for me, is this: Is the LGBT law in Russia morally defensible? Answer: NO. All this whataboutism about Syria and god knows what else distracts from the unfortunately bigoted attitude towards LGBT people that is prevalent in Russian society, enshrined in its laws, and very contrary to the Olympic values of freedom and tolerance.
    Last edited by MalloryArcher; 11-19-2014 at 11:58 AM.

  11. #161
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    At the Rink
    Posts
    3,605
    Julia Ioffe is not a credible source. She is not fair and honest. Prime example of American conspiracy theories on display here. As an American it's sad to see our freedoms taken advantage of by the likes of her.

    http://www.newrepublic.com/authors/julia-ioffe
    Last edited by Sam-Skwantch; 11-19-2014 at 07:21 PM.

  12. #162
    umm...
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Bears, vodka, balalaika...
    Posts
    920

  13. #163
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    416
    I would certainly disengage from this argument where the opponent uses the "proofs" like "nonsense", "ludicrous conspiracy theories", "CIA spies", and "bigotted attitude" unless the thread were called: "what the Russians say".

    The Russians say many things about what's going on in Ukraine, for example. Not all of these things are same as what out TV says. In fact, I do not like to watch it in the first place. But I also see the clear propaganda and one sided "analysis" from the Western media on the topic. How am I sure? My wife is from Ukraine and her mom goes back and forth - my news are first hand.

    But the funniest source of opinions about Russia is the Russians who emigrated to the US. I met a lot of those when studied in California. One of my classmates was born in Russia and his family moved when he was about 12. It was bizzare how hard he tried to not to be treated as a Russian. Of course, they moved not because Russia is supposed to be better. Who said that where? Average income in Russia is now 1/5 of that of in America. And in 1999 when oil was $10 it was 1/20. People want better life and then after making a very big decision they want to prove themselves that they were right. They become "bigger catholics than a Pope". The biggest Russia haters I met where exactly Russian emigrants.

    As for LGBT, the law itself protects the minors. If it limits itself just to that I see no problems. I see no problems naming parents father and mother rather than parent#1 and parent#2. I am against any discrimination which also is stated in our constitution's chapter 19. And the case of my friend who is an open gay and who had a high corporate position in one of the largest Russian chaebols shows that the horrors of anti-gay sentiment in the society are exaggerated. Well, he lost his position but not because of that but because he openly supported Navalny.

    I will be frank. This thread is named "what the Russians say". Those who want to write about how bad the Russians are welcome to start a new thread which I will not read. But here I will report any on-going bashing with the above-mentioned "proofs" if they go on.

  14. #164
    That's how you get ants MalloryArcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Park Avenue
    Posts
    101
    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post

    As for LGBT, the law itself protects the minors. If it limits itself just to that I see no problems.
    Protects them from WHAT?

  15. #165
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    416
    In theory protects from early exposure to sex related topics.

    Homosexual relations were considered as felony with prison terms during the Soviet times. No matter how wild it was I cannot remember a single outcry from the Western media regarding the topic during the Cold War period - somehow there were more pressing issues to focus on. I cannot say that I follow the topic closely and may be I am wrong. But I heard a lot about corruption that helped Katar to get Mundial and nothing about LGBT issues although it is a crime in Katar - same as in the USSR. Where is Western mass media fiercely attacking FIFA, where are demonstrations? Too early or double standards - Katar is a friend?

    My point is that both the law and the reaction to it are just a part of communication war without any major things happenning in real life. Any actions that are taken with minors, hetero- or homosexual are severe felonies in many countries. Then the question is what is "propaganda of non-traditional sexual relationships" which is the gist of the controversial law? No one knows. There were several cases that people were fined in relation to this law. That's it. What has changed after the law? Nothing in fact. Why did they do it in Russia? With the weakness of the economy the government is trying to lead emotionally with the appeal to traditional values. And it brings some fruits. One cannot say the Russians are wild because they do not fully accept the current set of Western values - the West itself did not have it several decades ago. The Russians are more conservative but that is not a crime. Not a single gay was abused by the authorities just because he is gay during Sochi games - so all that fuzz was for nothing. And again whatever critique I read from the Western media now is about "Russian imperial ambition", "occupying Ukraine" and so forth. Somehow the gay issue noize has died down. Why? Was not it just a bubble that burst?

    And I want to protect my children from early unnecessary exposure to any sex related stuff before they reach a certain age. My friend who is a German tells things about schools in Germany namely about sexual education there (and parent #1 - parent #2 thing) which I don't like - it's getting somewhat close to pedophily IMO.

Page 11 of 13 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •