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Thread: What the Russians say

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    Of course, I don't have scientific evidence same as the wish to look up for it. But isn't it obvious that when someone explains in detail how to use condom when you are 11 you might be willing to try it when you are 12?
    You're kidding, right? So if you told an 11 year about, oh, say, The Great Train Robbery, and how it was done, they're going to be planning a robbery the next day? Gosh I guess I should tell my 15 year old nephew, in detail, how to clean the oven. And the bathroom. It'll save me a ton of time and effort.

    Please do us all a favor and stop posting these outrageous allegations without proof. Because I can do the same--as soon as I stop laughing so hard that I can type! Sheesh.

    And bellflower--you're part of the reason I'm laughing.
    Last edited by WeakAnkles; 11-20-2014 at 04:00 PM.

  2. #182
    That's how you get ants MalloryArcher's Avatar
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    In the interest of fairness, I would say that even in countries like France there is an ugly undercurrent of homophobia in sectors of the population. This came out in those big (not to mention stupid) protests against the marriage law recently. From a country that purports to be 1) secular and 2) the home of liberty, equality and fraternity, it was pretty disappointing. A difference between France and Russia, however, is that France's civil society and rule of law is robust enough that vulnerable minority groups are offered some protection, and deliberately discriminatory bills don't make it to law. That's not to say that a French or American politician wouldn't stoop to playing on people's worst prejudices and bigotry to win votes, the way lawmakers (and the president) have in Russia. The difference is that there is more of a limit to what they can do.

    On Qatar, well I think this will become a more significant issue as the World Cup comes closer. I think this will include the LGBT issue, and the bonded labour they use there. That choice is so problematic that I expect there will be serious protests. The scandal with World Cups/Olympics in places like these really started with China 08, and I suspect it will increase.

    It's of course really disappointing too that there is rank homophobia on a figure skating message boards - figure skating owes so much to its many loyal gay fans, not to mention its talented gay skaters.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalloryArcher View Post
    In the interest of fairness, I would say that even in countries like France there is an ugly undercurrent of homophobia in sectors of the population. This came out in those big (not to mention stupid) protests against the marriage law recently. From a country that purports to be 1) secular and 2) the home of liberty, equality and fraternity, it was pretty disappointing. A difference between France and Russia, however, is that France's civil society and rule of law is robust enough that vulnerable minority groups are offered some protection, and deliberately discriminatory bills don't make it to law. That's not to say that a French or American politician wouldn't stoop to playing on people's worst prejudices and bigotry to win votes, the way lawmakers (and the president) have in Russia. The difference is that there is more of a limit to what they can do.

    On Qatar, well I think this will become a more significant issue as the World Cup comes closer. I think this will include the LGBT issue, and the bonded labour they use there. That choice is so problematic that I expect there will be serious protests. The scandal with World Cups/Olympics in places like these really started with China 08, and I suspect it will increase.

    It's of course really disappointing too that there is rank homophobia on a figure skating message boards - figure skating owes so much to its many loyal gay fans, not to mention its talented gay skaters.
    It's not just fans and skaters, but also judges. Gilles Vandenbroeck, who passed away this week, was an ice dancing judge and is credited "with creating the format for the judges, referees and technical panel handbooks widely used by the ISU. The IDTC is responsible for judges' education, appointments and promotions, as well as the judging rules and the communications and documents associated with them." (http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2014/...f-vandenbroeck). The ISU website acknowledged that he left behind a male partner. Oh, and a daughter.

  4. #184
    Looking for ice in the tropics bellflower's Avatar
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    But a fair point, right? Plus, 12 years old would be so terrified of placing a condom around* it
    Last edited by bellflower; 11-20-2014 at 04:46 PM. Reason: damn prepositions

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    You're kidding, right? So if you told an 11 year about, oh, say, The Great Train Robbery, and how it was done, they're going to be planning a robbery the next day? Gosh I guess I should tell my 15 year old nephew, in detail, how to clean the oven. And the bathroom. It'll save me a ton of time and effort.

    Please do us all a favor and stop posting these outrageous allegations without proof. Because I can do the same--as soon as I stop laughing so hard that I can type! Sheesh.

    And bellflower--you're part of the reason I'm laughing.
    Your logic is faulted and one does not need to go through advanced courses on logic to see it. With such you can laugh as much as you like. And you feel free to only trust the information on Russia coming from Western journalists and Russian emigrants. One favor I will not do "you all" is not posting here whatever I think. It's a freedom of speech, isn't it? Especially on matters related to Russia from a Russian living in Russia.

    One more thing, if my posts were the reason to make an illogical conclusion "there is rank homophobia on a figure skating message boards" I am making a disclaimer for the 4th or 5th time now that I do not support any discrimination including that of LGBT community. I personally do not care about a person's sexual orientation when communicating with her/him including the workplace - one of my best former employees is a gay. I admit that overall attitude in the society is not positive and government is doing little to change it, namely vice versa is playing the gay card to make people even more orthodox. At the same time, with the exception of the prohibition of the gay parades I see no direct abuses. Half of our showbiz are gays same as representatives of some services like hairdressing. And although it is not openly admitted, a lot of our politicians are gays. My key point is that the so-called anti-gay laws in real life changed nothing. If you like it this way, it was bad - it remained bad. But it has not suddenly become horrible.

    And the last thing - a site with a list of some gay clubs in Moscow. The number could be higher but at least it is not hopeless. http://www.nighttours.com/moscow/gayguide/
    Last edited by samkrut@mail.ru; 11-21-2014 at 08:08 AM.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by samkrut@mail.ru View Post
    Your logic is faulted and one does not need to go through advanced courses on logic to see it. With such you can laugh as much as you like. And you feel free to only trust the information on Russia coming from Western journalists and Russian emigrants. One favor I will not do "you all" is not posting here whatever I think. It's a freedom of speech, isn't it? Especially on matters related to Russia from a Russian living in Russia.

    And one more thing, if my posts were the reason to make an illogical conclusion "there is rank homophobia on a figure skating message boards" I am making a disclaimer for the 4th or 5th time now that I do not support any discrimination including that of LGBT community. I personally do not care about a person's sexual orientation when communicating with her/him including the workplace - one of my best former employees is a gay. I admit that overall attitude in the society is not positive and government is doing little to change it, namely vice versa is playing the gay card to make people even more orthodox. At the same time, with the exception of the prohibition of the gay parades I see no direct abuses. Half of our showbiz are gays same as representatives of some services like hairdressing. And although it is not openly admitted, a lot of our politicians are gays. My key point is that the so-called anti-gay laws in real life changed nothing. If you like it this way, it was bad - it remained bad. But it has not suddenly become horrible.

    Again, stop with the outrageous allegations. Where the **** did I tell you you can't have your own opinion or don't have the right to say whatever ridiculous nonsense you want to? Just realize that if you post something outrageous like "But isn't it obvious that when someone explains in detail how to use condom when you are 11 you might be willing to try it when you are 12?" that you can EXPECT to be challenged to provide reliable objective data to back it up. And I hope everyone here realizes that you are not the world's authority on the Russian zeitgeist. You represent ONE point of view.

    And since you're so insistent about how we poor westerners couldn't possibly have a CLUE about what it is like in Russia or how people feel there, let me tell you this. You are not gay. You did not grow up gay. You did not grow up gay in a perniciously homophobic society. You have NO CLUE what it is like to be publicly erased. Because that is EXACTLY what Russia's propaganda law is trying to do--erase all positive LGBT voices and experiences from the public sphere, because ANY expression of it can be deemed "propaganda" and thus be liable for legal action. ANY POSITIVE EXPRESSION AT ALL. Oh but you play the expected, But one of my BESTEST FWIENDS IN THE WORLD is Gay, as if that makes everything all better.

    You want to know what it is like for a gay kid to grow up in that kind of environment? Why don't you ASK SOMEONE LGBT and not rely on your own media? I have a pretty good idea of what they'll tell you. That because there are no positive role models at all, they will think there is something wrong with them (because after all, that is EXACTLY what your media is telling them). That they are the only ones who aren't "normal." That they're sick. And how do you think kids who are told they are sick are going to turn out in the long run? And if you think that a single one of these LGBT kids is going to magically become straight simply because they have been publicly erased, then I can tell you from my own experience and the anecdotal experiences of pretty much every single LGBT person I have eve spoken to about this, you are wrong. And in so many cases, deadly wrong (there are reasons that LGBT teens have the or one of the single highest rate of suicide attempts among any group). Your anti-gay laws changed nothing FOR YOU. Believe me, they changed plenty for your LGBT kids.

  7. #187
    That's how you get ants MalloryArcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Again, stop with the outrageous allegations. Where the **** did I tell you you can't have your own opinion or don't have the right to say whatever ridiculous nonsense you want to? Just realize that if you post something outrageous like "But isn't it obvious that when someone explains in detail how to use condom when you are 11 you might be willing to try it when you are 12?" that you can EXPECT to be challenged to provide reliable objective data to back it up. And I hope everyone here realizes that you are not the world's authority on the Russian zeitgeist. You represent ONE point of view.

    And since you're so insistent about how we poor westerners couldn't possibly have a CLUE about what it is like in Russia or how people feel there, let me tell you this. You are not gay. You did not grow up gay. You did not grow up gay in a perniciously homophobic society. You have NO CLUE what it is like to be publicly erased. Because that is EXACTLY what Russia's propaganda law is trying to do--erase all positive LGBT voices and experiences from the public sphere, because ANY expression of it can be deemed "propaganda" and thus be liable for legal action. ANY POSITIVE EXPRESSION AT ALL. Oh but you play the expected, But one of my BESTEST FWIENDS IN THE WORLD is Gay, as if that makes everything all better.

    You want to know what it is like for a gay kid to grow up in that kind of environment? Why don't you ASK SOMEONE LGBT and not rely on your own media? I have a pretty good idea of what they'll tell you. That because there are no positive role models at all, they will think there is something wrong with them (because after all, that is EXACTLY what your media is telling them). That they are the only ones who aren't "normal." That they're sick. And how do you think kids who are told they are sick are going to turn out in the long run? And if you think that a single one of these LGBT kids is going to magically become straight simply because they have been publicly erased, then I can tell you from my own experience and the anecdotal experiences of pretty much every single LGBT person I have eve spoken to about this, you are wrong. And in so many cases, deadly wrong (there are reasons that LGBT teens have the or one of the single highest rate of suicide attempts among any group). Your anti-gay laws changed nothing FOR YOU. Believe me, they changed plenty for your LGBT kids.
    Worse still, he/she was saying "Russia isn't that homophobic because all our hairdressers are gay". HAHAHAHA oh all you can do is laugh sometimes.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Again, stop with the outrageous allegations. .
    Things like "outrageous allegations", "where the ****", "ridiculous nonsense", etc. do not make your standpoint stronger. They also do not cover the fact that your logic is faulty when you compare sexual education with oven cleaning . Faulty for one simple reason. There is sexual drive in teenagers. Physically they are ready for sex much earlier than mentally. That's why the legal age is much higher even in the U.S. than the physical age. That's why there are some sex related taboos in showing things at least in Russia. Strange I have to explain this.

    You might have had pain while at school and some gay children have this pain in Russia and other countries. I feel for you and those children. The biggest role here stays with the family - no laws pro or anti LGBT can change this. But do not claim the exclusivity for pain. School is in general a very stressful place. A lot of children are bullied for various reasons. I was bullied for example for figure skating ("not for a boy"). But even then it is just one part and not the most important one. There are about 7000 children suicides in Russia per year. The biggest reason is relations in the family (70%), the second one is love (14%). Statitistics that I have does not distinguish between suicide rates among LGBT and non-LGBT teenagers. If you have it, show. For the first time we will have something to discuss rather than what we have now: my reaction to bland accusations.

    Quote Originally Posted by MalloryArcher View Post
    Worse still, he/she was saying "Russia isn't that homophobic because all our hairdressers are gay". HAHAHAHA oh all you can do is laugh sometimes.
    Your distortion of my quote does not make your point stronger. I said that although there are no proofs that any of my words could be named as such if someone made the following conclusion: "there is rank homophobia on a figure skating message boards" based on what I said it was a mistake. On the other hand, on many levels a significant part of Russian population can be named homophobic - I do not dispute that and never did.

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