but then?

JonnyCoop said:

Usova/Zhulin, Klimova/Ponomarenko, and Gritshuk/Platov didn't have to wait long to get into the top 5, either; they were all pretty much in it at their 1st Worlds. So the supposed "wait your turn" rule (and this is not a rule I made up, people have been saying it for decades) would not seem to apply to Russians.

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You know JonnyCoop, couldn't it also be that *gasp* K&P, U&Z, and G&P were fantastic ice dancers, and deserved their placements!
Also, what implies that there is this "rule"? In the past, that may have been likely, but I think the Duchesnays winning the 1991 World Championship shattered that so called "belief".

On N&K, are you even considering their skating at all! Personally, I don't like their programs, but I hope you see that they are perhaps the smoothest dancers today. They have great lifts and dance spins, and are very clean skaters. They aren't sloppy like DenSta and DelSho, and don't have the scratchy edges of Ruslan Goncharov. Wow, it can't be that they actually deserve to be #1!
- What probably held N&K back in the past was their total lack of content and low speed, which isn't really that much of a problem anymore, as they have fixed that.

Also, can you explain A&P? How did they just rise up ahead of the established canon? They rose up and left behind the "established" B&K! Wow, this happens!

Wow.

B&A play the game better?

All the Russian ice dancers cheat?

Hey all,

Just felt I had to put in my 2 cents. Dick Button has said for years that the top men and women singles skaters in the US Nationals would easily win a championship in another country. Gee, maybe all those Russian dancers spent their dues paying time at home because they couldn't get on their national podium to get a berth at worlds!

Check out some of the other national sites for results. Some countries can't even field any dancers, so how competitive would you have to be to "win" as the only entry? Remember the Australian dancers (I think it was Goodwill Games in Australia) who had no illusions about placing among the top dancers. They were just so excited to even be dancing on the same ice as the top teams.. I've gotta dig out that tape -- since it wasn't ABC, we actually got to SEE the Australian dancers in that competition. (Okay, ya had to slog through tons of other events to get to them, but events on the other side of the world certainly didn't compete with prime time tv shows. )

If other countries had the same traditions of competitive teams in dance and pairs, the Russians wouldn't be the only country to dominate those disciplines.

I just would like to add that more Russian-born and trained ice dancers represent other countries at the world level than the number of ice dancers represnting Russia itself. Just look at the top 10!

So maybe it is possible for one coutry to have skaters that are just that good.

Just like the US ladies who consistently debut at the worlds in the top 5 or so.

Yana

The reason Russian pairs frequently did so well at their first worlds was that the Russians had so much depth in ice dance, you had to be really good to make the world team. Nowadays, Russia has less depth, so their teams are debuting outside the top ten.

As to why L/T never advanced, besides their injuries, I don't think either of them wanted to win enough. All the top skaters in the world are very driven, and L/T never seemed to have that motivation. They were in it more for the art, which is fine, but it will hurt you competatively. It's too bad, becasue they had so much potential. I wil really miss their skating.

roller girl:

No doubt you have heard this, but while Naomi is off the ice and training to have her baby, there will be a lot of vaulable time lost. Her life will be totally changed. Will she have the time to pick up the pieces and jump back in again? Will she want to? Those are questions only she will be able to answer. I am sure with all the excitement this news has brought she has no doubt considered these questions.

I had no idea Naomi was pregnant. When is she do? Is she married?

Peter is getting older so its too bad this happened but I'm sure he will find something else he is talented in whether it be coaching or choreography, unless he really wants to compete badly -- in which case he will have skaters lined up to skate with him.

St.LousBluesFan -

If the judges practice the unofficial rule of "paying their dues", what happened in the Ladies Group in Nagano where a very young skater beat out Bobek. Chen, Butryskaya and La Kwan?
It certainly wasn't her turn. Was it? Maybe something else!

So, it seems to me, that rule doesn't always hold up. Is it a rule of convenience for some skaters but not all?

Does the "Rule" only pertain to the dance discipline? If the "Rule" only pertains to Dance, then Johhny Coop has a point - not proven, of course, but the rapid rise of certain dance teams does not follow the "Rule", imo.

Please forgive me if it looks like I'm putting you on the spot. It's just that your point is very interesting and I somehow feel you may be right that judges just may give awards out for longevity.

Cheers - Joe

Hi Joe.

I personally do not think this rule exists but if it does, it only applies to ice dancing, where most champions appear to be almost a decade older than single champs (especially the ladies). I am not a judge, so I don't know where this so called rule comes from. It certainly appears to be one, since there is never any movement in the 2 parts of a competition. Teams fall, but still remain in the same spot.

But yes, there are exceptions. I think B&A moved up ahead of L&C because of their talent, not because "they know how to play the game"!

I suppose in singles, it's the opposite - if you are older, you really have no chance. Obviously, there are exceptions and Butyrskaya, Kwan, and even Sokolova come to mind.

I don't have to go into this, but everyone would agree that in ice dancing (and in pairs) it takes years to develop and to be able to relate to your partner. In singles, it's different and there is always a next young thing doing a 3x3 or a quad. That's why I bet Kwan will not get an OGM in Turin.

Again, the only reason I brought this up (namely, "paying the dues") is to point out that Navka has been skating for a long time and that she did not debut in the top 5 right away. Fact that at least 5 pairs ahead of them retired in the past few years and others were injured most likely helped that at all. Then they got better and moved up into top 3. Naïve? Maybe. But I don't think the judges just said, "gee, they are from Russia, we don't care how they skate, let's put them ahead of others."

Yana

Hi stLouisblues - I think when you take out the exceptions, the unofficial rule of "paying their dues" does not really exist. Exceptions include B&A as you mentioned, and there is Chair and Saknarvsky(s), I'm not sure how long the Bulgarians, the French and the Italian teams have been around but certainly, according to the rules, they will have to wait regardless of how much they improve to win gold. This to me is not a real competition.

I think you mean that the Russians have that 'rule' and I can definitely say OK to that.
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In singles, it's different and there is always a next young thing doing a 3x3 or a quad. That's why I bet Kwan will not get an OGM in Turin.
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Is it only Kwan you will bet does not get a OGM?

Sokolov is erratic; Sasha has not been skating 3x3s this year, Irina is a big question mark. Jenny does have a 3x3 and Fumie and Arakaw also have 3x3s/

You have to mean Miki Ando with a quad, if what you say the gold medal to go to the skater with the highest degree of jumping ability. She would be the next little thing to come along.

Will you bet on Miki Ando?

and what if Kwan comes up with 3x3? Will that give her an automatic OGM?

Just some of my thoughts and questions. I think N&K will easily win the Wolds, but the Ladies I think is not so easy to predict. And the olys, are too far away. By then, Gregory and petukhov may be the top contenders.

Cheers - Joe

Joesitz said:

Just some of my thoughts and questions. I think N&K will easily win the Wolds, but the Ladies I think is not so easy to predict. And the olys, are too far away. By then, Gregory and petukhov may be the top contenders.

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You are joking right? Gregory and Petukhov contenders by the Olys?

Anyway, I wouldn't say N&K will easily win worlds (although, it's likely). The did win the FD at Euros by only 1 vote. If D&S stay at least 2nd in the CD and OD, they could certainly have a chance in the FD. I just hope they skate their FD cleanly.

TV

If Gregory/Petukhov are ever contenders, I will cry. They are by far my least favorite team in all of ice dance.

And it's not that teams have to "pay their dues," they just have to improve.

boggartlaura said:

If Gregory/Petukhov are ever contenders, I will cry. They are by far my least favorite team in all of ice dance.

And it's not that teams have to "pay their dues," they just have to improve.

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And get a style, choreography, and transitions.

TV

My remarks, were facetious but I do like the team very much and giving them top contender spot for the Olys is a wishful thinking on my part. However, I'm surprised my post got so much attention.

As for N&K, if this 'paying their dues' means anything they will win, but I do indeed prefer D&S.

Joe