Skating "jargons": INTEGRITY, HONESTY

apache88 · Feb 22, 2004

After hearing these two terms, I tried really hard to understand what the commentators had meant to say but to no avail.

After Michelle finished her Fields Of Gold program at the Olympics, I heard a comment, along the lines of "she has been on the Olympic podium twice, that shows longevity and integrity". Integrity? What in God's name does it have to do with skating? What does it mean when one doesn't skate with integrity? Then I recalled Dick's comment at 98 Nationals freeskate as she was taking to the ice, "....honesty is centre to her skating, the gentility of her position". What honesty was he talking about?

Still scratching my head.

SusanBeth · Feb 22, 2004

IMO, the word integrity was used to describe Michelle's commitment to excellence in her skating. In other words, she hasn't lowered her standards.

As for Dick's statement, I think it was a confusing way of saying- she was staying true to herself and focusing on her skating and what she needed to do.

BronzeisGolden · Feb 24, 2004

Apache,

I believe Dick's "honesty" comments about Michelle's "Lyra" performance at the 98 Nationals had to do with the fact that she had skated character driven numbers in the past two years (96-Salome, 97-Taj Mahal) and 98 marked a departure. She wasn't performing as any certain character or telling any particular story, she was just skating as herself. The theme of that program was "her" joy. "Gentility of position" would also come into play there, because "Lyra" certainly didn't feature the bold and dramatic movements like those from her past two programs. I hope that helps, that is always how I've thought about it!

apache88 · Feb 24, 2004

Thanks Susan and BronzeisGolden. Now I find it odd that those two terms were used to describe Michelle's skating. It's like not many skate with honesty or treat the sport with integrity. I certainly feel Michelle is not the only skater with those 2 qualities. I think most of the skaters, if not all, have those qualities.

berthes ghost · Feb 24, 2004

I've heard Dick call Meno&Sand's skating "honest" on a number of occasions. He's probably used it for others as well, they just don't come off the top of my head at the moment.

I've also heard Scott speak about Krisit's integrity.

dizzydi · Feb 24, 2004

Skating jargons.....

Part of the explanation of using adjectives such as "integrity and honesty" might be related to the skaters themselves not just their skating. People like Dick Button and Scott Hamilton have had the privilege of knowing these skaters personally. After all, who could argue that both Kristi and Michelle are women of integrity and honesty. This is bound to reflect on their skating, as well.

Dizzy

sk8m8 · Feb 24, 2004

From Dictionary.com

Honesty: The quality or state of being honest; probity; fairness and straightforwardness of conduct, speech, etc.; integrity; sincerity; truthfulness; freedom from fraud or guile.

Integrity: an unreduced or unbroken completeness or totality

In both cases I think the words are used to describe the essense of MK skating. It is "honest" in that it is true to MK and her sensibilities. She skates very straightforwardly, without artifice or extra movements that are contrived or extraneous. Dicky is really into not "flailing the arms" and having movement "that adds, not detracts from the program and skating." Dick is very much into the "she wears her heart on her sleeve" comment, too, which I beleive is meant a compliment meaning that she is there in the moment BEING Michelle, rather that attempting to "hide" behind the charachter of the piece.

As for skating with integrity, I think he means that she doesn't use "tricks" to convey what she is attempting to get across. Now keep in mind that I LOVE Irina skating, but her Tosca number was almost ruined (IMHO!!!) by that shaking her head all around and "acting" like she was going crazy in her routine. She had just skated a beautifully expressed program, why all the theatrics? I think that's what Dick is talking about, oppositionally is the "seamlessness" of MK's skating, her intent and emotions carry through the entire program and she does not lapse into "theatrics" to "sell" her program.

Just a couple of takes on the subject

Mathman · Feb 25, 2004

What sk8m8 said, LOL.

Great post, sk8m8.

To me, integrity means wholeness. If you have integrity you are not two-faced. In mathematics, an integer is a whole number (not a fraction). In calculus, integration means adding everything up into one big summation (the opposite is differentiation). In the social sciences, integration and its opposite, discrimination, carry similar meanings.

Applied to a figure skating program, I think a performance has integrity if all of the components fit together to make a well-designed and intensely pleasing whole. In Michelle's programs, to me, there is a kind of dramatic tension between inevitability and surprize -- as each element comes up, there is the excitement of a leap into an unknown future (literally, in the case of a jump), yet as soon as it is landed there is an aesthetically satisfying sense of -- yes, it just had to be that way.

Michelle's greatest strength is her flow across the ice. Each element disolves seamlessly into the next (in retrospect, inevitably so). This ties her program together into a well-integrated whole.

For just one example, look at Michelle's landing edges. If you examine the ice after her performance you will see a perfect arc from the incoming edge to the outflowing edge, only with a piece missing when she was in the air. Other skaters (Sarah Hughes, for instance), leave behind a lot of weird scuff-marks on the ice where they take off and land.

The price Michelle pays for this, in my opinion, is that her jumps are not very high. You just can't get way up in the air and still control the landing like that. Irina Slutskaya, for instance, has very high jumps, but the trade-off is that when she lands she often comes almost to a complete stop. This interrupts the flow of the program and detracts from it's "integrity," IMO.

Mathman

RIskatingfan · Feb 25, 2004

Integrity and honesty to describe only Michelle's skating? I think that could be used for almost every skater who trains hard and puts 100% out there on the ice every time! What does this have to do with her choreography, her jumps or the way she sells her programs (being theatrical, "tricks"...)? So a skater with a more theatrical style doesn't have "integrity and honesty"?

I know it wasn't meant to sound like this, but it's what it looks when you analyzing to this degree (or overanalyzing) words of someone who probably didn't even gave them much thought, he just felt like it at the time!

I love the Kween but to me, this sort of way people find to praise her make me :rolleye:

As if there isn't enough stuff to praise in her skating. Then people wonder why so many skating fans don't like her (or her fans) and grab all chances they have to slam her.

skatingfan5 · Feb 25, 2004

RIskatingfan said:
Integrity and honesty to describe only Michelle's skating? I think that could be used for almost every skater who trains hard and puts 100% out there on the ice every time! What does this have to do with her choreography, her jumps or the way she sells her programs (being theatrical, "tricks"...)? So a skater with a more theatrical style doesn't have "integrity and honesty"?

Well, I think that several of the people above (sk8m8 and Mathman) said it best. Integrity and honesty are words that have multiple meanings, and the context is what clarifies (or should) what is meant. "Integrity" can mean "the quality or state of being complete or undivided" -- and, yes, many/most of Michelle's performances in recent years definitely exhibit that -- they are a complete whole, not such a collection of individual elements. Likewise, "honesty" can mean the quality of being real, genuine, sincere, and even "simple." Neither of the words need necessarily refer to a skater's character -- though I do think that Michelle has shown herself to possess both qualities. But so have other skaters. On the other hand, there are some highly skilled skaters whose skating features highlights (huge jumps or mind-boggling spins or blazing speed) rather than the overall performance level. This doesn't mean that one is better than the other and a person can appreciate both, though perhaps may favor one over the other.

Mathman · Feb 25, 2004

RIskatingfan, I agree with what you said. That is why I was careful in my post to talk about what I thought the word "integrity" might mean as applied to a figure skating program.

In this narrow context, it has nothing to do with trying hard, putting in 100%, being theatrical or not. As Skatingfan5 just said, it has to do with all the parts of the program working together to produce a harmonious whole.

And I do wonder "why so many skating fans don't like her ... and grab every chance to slam her."

If someone says that Michelle is not a good figure skater, that person is simply being untruthful.

If someone says he or she doesn't like her -- someone who has never met her and knows nothing about her -- I can only attribute that to general malevolence.

Mathman

sk8m8 · Feb 25, 2004

just a note...

theatrical and theatrics have little but etymology in common.

Theatrical has to do with with the style of skating a athelete possess. Yagudin and Plushy, Sasha, Klimkin are good examples.

Theatrics has to do with the tendency of anyone, skaters included, to use overacting, "mugging" grand gesturing and other superfluous 'emoting" to express something that could be expressed with a "theatrical style or movements"

I am not slamming "theatrical skating"only commenting on skating filled with "theatrics", one of which can be pleasant to watch, while the other is almost never enjoyable.

RIskatingfan · Feb 25, 2004

Mathman, when I said that about "people who don't like her and slam her" was more about her skating. I do agree that someone who can't recognize Michelle as a good skater either is blind or doesn't know much about the sport

But what I generally meant with that comment was that I think there's lots of skating fans out there who can appreciate Michelle's skating but they unconsciously start to get turned off because they get tired of all the gushing (some that can be a little silly for lack of better word) and the hype. That's what I meant with that. (Now imagine those who are not fans LOL) I know because that's how I feel many times (that's why I don't go to MKF LOL). I haven't given up on Michelle fandom though and I hope I won't

Skatingfan5, you can certainly give the meaning you want to integrity and honesty in a skating context and your post proves just that LOL. You were able to connect such strong and powerful words as those to the discussion of "overall performance vs. one or two highlights in a program". The discussion is fine but those two words should have been left out, they got nothing to do with it. Hey, I could say now that Irina Slutskaya's "Tosca" shows alot of integrity too because she tried to interpret the music and the Tosca's character to have a hamonious result and not just separated skating elements together with some music...

It's a pointless discussion IMO If Dick Button had used "truth" and "purity" you'd be having the same discussion, trying to make a connection between something you like in Michelle's skating and that word. That's why I find the whole discussion a little... hmmm... LOL Although this is a dicussion board, so... just MHO.

Thanks for the distinction between those concepts, sk8m8

BronzeisGolden · Feb 25, 2004

RIskatingfan,

You made a valid point that any words could somehow be connected and explained away, but I feel that "honesty" as it applies to "Lyra Angelica" is interesting because that was the intended theme of the program. I remember reading several articles with quotes from Michelle, Frank and Lori Nichol during the 97-98 season. They wanted to create something "honest" as they termed it, and this involved (as mentioned above) not choosing another character centered piece....Michelle would skate as Michelle, not Michelle portraying the provacative Salome or the tragic Taj Mahal Queen. I also don't think that Apache88 had any intention to spark a gush-athon, it just seems Apache didn't understand how these terms could make sensible compliments for skating. But, even as a major Michelle fan, I can definitely agree that I try to stay away from the wildly pointless threads....and I also tend to stay shy away from MKF as well. I'm more comfortable in a general skating community.

skatingfan5 · Feb 25, 2004

Pointless & paradoxical

RIskatingfan said:
Skatingfan5, you can certainly give the meaning you want to integrity and honesty in a skating context and your post proves just that LOL. You were able to connect such strong and powerful words as those to the discussion of "overall performance vs. one or two highlights in a program". The discussion is fine but those two words should have been left out, they got nothing to do with it. Hey, I could say now that Irina Slutskaya's "Tosca" shows alot of integrity too because she tried to interpret the music and the Tosca's character to have a hamonious result and not just separated skating elements together with some music...
It's a pointless discussion IMO If Dick Button had used "truth" and "purity" you'd be having the same discussion, trying to make a connection between something you like in Michelle's skating and that word.

You're probably right, this is pointless because I evidently didn't understand your initial comments and you certainly didn't understand what I intended to say with mine (I accept the blame for being so inarticulate). Since my first attempt at responding was lost in cyberspace, this will be short(er).
1. My definitions for "integrity" and "honesty" came Webster's New World Dictionary, 2nd college edition.
2. I never said "one or two highlights" -- and in fact, was thinking of a program in which multiple highlights were the strongest point vs. one in which the unity of the performance was the best feature. Michelle is certainly not alone in exhibiting "integrity" of this sort and neither of the two performance types is intrinsically better than the other -- I have certainly enjoyed many skaters who have "stop the show" elements in their skating programs. I was just trying to explain what I believed Dick Button meant in the comments of his cited in the first post of this topic.
3. I was evidently mistaken that you were focussing on the more typical usage of "integrity" and "honesty" (in terms of being virtues or positive character traits). Sorry if I conflated what you said with others' take on things.
4. "Truth" and "purity" and "honesty" and "integrity" could just as easily be used to characterize programs I did NOT like as they could ones which I did. I suppose that's a bit paradoxical, but more likely proves your statement about this discussion being pointless.

Ladskater · Feb 25, 2004

apache88:

It's been said of Elvis Stojko that he "skates from his heart" and with "true conviction." In other words, he gives 110% of himself when he is performing.

This is a great compliment for skaters. It just means that they are giving their all while they are skating. Nothing is held back.

Integrity and honesty may sound a little "far fetched" but it means skaters are true to their sport and honest with themselves.

Elvis always says "Be your own best friend." In the life of a competitor that is very important. They constantly have so much pressure on them and have to deal with nerves and fans (yes, us!) - living up to expectations of others - sometimes they forget to be "true" to themselves.

I don't think there is anything wrong with using these terms.

apache88 · Feb 25, 2004

BronzeisGolden:
I also don't think that Apache88 had any intention to spark a gush-athon, it just seems Apache didn't understand how these terms could make sensible compliments for skating.

Thanks BronzeisGolden. RIskatingfan, I can understand where you're coming from but it's never my intention to start a Michelle thread to induce a Michelle gushfest, not that I'm implying you suggested in your post that it was my intention.

95% of my posts have been about Michelle because I'm not a skating fan, only a Michelle fan, but have got myself drawn to skating discussions because I'm hungry for Michelle-related info. I have benefitted a great deal from this message board that's why I keep coming back whenever I have questions, be they silly or pointless. The reason I keep throwing in Michelle questions here instead of MKF is because I want to have balanced comments. Not that MKF posters lack the knowledge but I strongly feel there's bound to be extreme biased views in any skater-specific message board, and that's understandable.

RIskatingfan:
Integrity and honesty to describe only Michelle's skating? I think that could be used for almost every skater who trains hard and puts 100% out there on the ice every time!

I think so too. That's why I want to know if honesty and integrity have been used to describe other skaters, I wouldn't know 'cos I only watch Michelle's performances and only handful of other skaters'. I'm in complete agreement with you that it seems at times there are desperate attempts by the commentators to find words to gush over Michelle's skating. I hate it when they use words with figurative meaning to describe skating. Blame it on my engineering background.

Ladskater · Feb 26, 2004

apache88

I hate it when they use words with figurative meaning to describe skating. Blame it on my engineering background.

So what words would you prefer to be used?

Mathman · Feb 26, 2004

I think "The Arts" like to highjack ordinary words and use them in ways that are unique to the discipline. Like a wine taster saying that a wine is "full bodied, yet impudent."

Is there a "Dorothy Hamill" wine?

Ladskater, I like your choice of Elvis Stojko as a skater who exhibits "honesty." Throughout his career Elvis remained true to his own skating style and artistic vision ("figure skating as a martial art"), despite a good deal of criticism.

RIskatingfan, I have to admit that even I can get my fill of gushing. (I mean, other people's gushing, not my own, :laugh:

) But I look at it this way. I hope that everybody who has a favorite skater, or more than one, gets as much pleasure out of rooting for that guy or gal as I get out of my special favorite. It's harmless fun, and I do try not to be too annoying with it (usually without success).

Mathman

Skating "jargons": INTEGRITY, HONESTY

apache88

SusanBeth

BronzeisGolden

apache88

berthes ghost

dizzydi

sk8m8

Mathman

RIskatingfan

skatingfan5

Mathman

sk8m8

RIskatingfan

BronzeisGolden

skatingfan5

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

apache88

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

Mathman

Similar threads

Connect with us