Tripping on the Podium
I would like to relate a real situation which I think many of us who have been student may be able to relate to, to this question falls should equal no wins.
I used to have a classmate who, despite not being able to complete her essays, would continually top the class in essay writing. We were baffled and decided to check her out. Reason? Her grammer, style and creativity were so good that despite having marks deducted for not completing her essay, her other near perfect marks gained from other criteria were able to push her essays into the A+ group. When one reads her essays, one wants more.
Should there be a rule that all other marks gained from the other criteria should be void if she did not complete her essay? That would be a double whammy. Should her brilliance in other criteria be ignored totally? Unfortunately, she would have to miss half of the essay in order for us to beat her. She was that brilliant and we were just not her standard despite completing our essays.
Marks on falls are already deducted. And if skaters and coaches (since the rules are made for the benefit of the sport and not the audience, lest we forget) think falls should be discouraged, they should revert to pre Vancouver – falls on jumps equal 0 marks. Then you will have skaters who would never try any jumps until the jumps are second nature to them.
I think giving 0 points on a fall is a bit harsh and would discourage, esp. the men to attempt quads. I like that the rule has raised the level of diificulty. Thats what makes figure skating a sport. I watched Evans free program in Vancouver yesterday and honestly i was really bored.
Originally Posted by TontoK
Bona Fide Member
Maybe the key would be to introduce an overall jump difficulty mark, and penalize skaters there who don't attempt quads triple axels.
Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu
The thing is yes you have to attempt those jumps and fall, but why does it mean your results shouldn't be sacrificed. Is it fair to those who have already mastered the element that your getting all of these points for a fail.
And also, I don't mind one fall so much, but I do mind multiple. IF your inconsistent with an element you really shouldn't be trying it twice, and you probably shouldn't be trying multiple elements at a time that your not comfortable with.
You will hate me and some of the skaters will as well, but I would do it as follows. If you perform an element and fall, then this element is not considered in the rating.
Originally Posted by Newbiespectator
Right now FS suffers under a "more & more points syndrome". We have many beautiful skaters who perform elements which they are not confident with. They might land them, or they might not. Its like a gamble every time and the programs suffer under this a lot.
Whenever I have the chance to speak to someone who actually is a judge or does skate, the same topic that we have here comes up quite often, especially after an event.
Not all, but definitely some do agree that the current point system forces skaters to sloppy performances, just because they score high with them. It gives FS some type of "fail competition" sometimes more, sometimes less and it doesn't do the beauty of that sport justice. FS isn't about falling on your butt, but about performing - selling a routine with your body language, combined with elements like jumps, spins, steps etc.
I often like the programs of skaters not competing for medals a lot more, because they actually perform their sport with grace and elegance and don't rush from element to element or perform those with a 50-50 chance of success.
We have a few exceptions to that rule of course and if the other skaters run clean, then hey its great to see as well as they mastered the difficulty, but you also often find exactly those performance less entertaining than those who were less difficult, but performed with attitude and grace. I think its a real pity for the sport, that even many in the media only talk about how many triple jumps someone did, or if there was a quad. That's not what FS is about, it isn't!
If we look back in time for instance at Susanna, one of the great skaters in Europe about 10 years ago - she did the triple Lutz - double Toe, also a triple Flip and I wonder whats wrong with that? Were her programs not just wonderful and sheer of amazing? She didn't need that triple - triple combination or a triple Axel.
I know we have many die hard jumping fans at this forum who only speak about that type of element and hey, I don't blame you for that. But in my eyes, that's just not what FS is all about
The current 1 point deduction just doesn't influence the judges marks at all either. I saw skaters who fell three times in their program and they still scored so much higher in their PC´s than someone going clean. While we all know why PC´s are PC´s, I still think such falls should matter in choreo or int, maybe even SS - after all it influences the smoothness of the performance.
That said I am not a judge at all, but to me the current judging system is far from perfect and very hard to sell to people who are not die hard fans as we are here at the forum or the ice rink.
I was asked so often at Budapest why Maxim and Tatjana won, even though they did so "poor". These questions will never stop and its not good for acquiring new fans. Because sports that you don't understand, seems unlikely to keep your attention for long.
Tripping on the Podium
I taught English for 16 years including honors level for seniors. Firstly, I assume that you are talking about in-class essays or essay exams. If a student had turned in unfinished writing to me for a homework assignment, I would have returned it to be finished and taking off late points which would have assured that s/he did not end up with anything near an A+. As for timed essays/essay exams, one of the key points in grading for me was always that the student wrote a clear conclusion. An unfinished essay, no matter its brilliant content or grammar, would not have received an A+ for that reason. Additionally, the grading criteria we used counted organization as a distinct element of scoring and the highest points in that area could not be received for a piece that was unfinished. I also would have spent some time with a student not finishing essays consistently to address the problem and look for time management solutions.
Originally Posted by spikydurian
Honestly, either your analogy is made up or you were dealing with very lenient instructors who were easily blown away by style and didn't care enough to address a student's clear deficiency.
So my response is that no, I would not give the essay writer an A+ for not finishing her work. Nor should skaters not see a consequence in points for not properly performing elements.