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Thread: Fantasy COP: How much would you deduct for a fall?

  1. #31
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    Negating an entire element for a fall is a really silly proposition. What's the point of guys even attempting risky elements like quads or women even attempting triple-triples, when they can get more points for a successful double axel?

    I suppose everyone should just do doubles to avoid falls altogether.

    I'd maybe suggest a graded system where falls on harder elements are less severe and reflect the element's inherent difficulty -- 1 point for a fall on a 3A or quad in men's (including GOE deduction) or a fall on a 3-3/3F/3Z/3A in women's; 2 points for a fall on any other triple in men's, 1.5 points for a fall on any other triple in women's.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Negating an entire element for a fall is a really silly proposition. What's the point of guys even attempting risky elements like quads or women even attempting triple-triples, when they can get more points for a successful double axel?

    I suppose everyone should just do doubles to avoid falls altogether.
    I think completely negating the element would not work--an otherwise complete program dropping a skater to tenth place for falling on a quad or 3A would upset people, too. I don't think athletes would be out there doing waltz jumps or even a ton of doubles, if that were the rule, though. Enough athletes on the highest levels have motivation and ambition to push the envelope that others who wanted to keep up would have no choice but to follow suit.

    I like the percentage of TSS solution. The one point deduction doesn't work on the senior level, especially for the men. It isn't enough--even combined with lost GOE--to push them to perfect elements. There has to be a balance of risk and reward as many have pointed out. It is out of balance now or we wouldn't see so many sloppy programs medaling. And, at least in what I hear from friends who are not fans and have watched with me, it doesn't do the sport any favors with the audience beyond us to see skaters impersonating a zamboni then being rewarded with a medal. Mistakes are mistakes no matter how we explain them away. Peyton Manning and the Broncos don't get 3.5 points if Wes Welker drops the ball in the end zone just because the pass had good form. And all of us devoted enough to post here can explain why skating is not football--but the casual fan just sees something that ignores mistakes yet claims to be a legitimate sport.

  3. #33
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    ^ To be fair though, plenty of sports ignore mistakes or fouls that are committed without any penalty. Whenever you have a referee of sorts, you will get bad calls that can adversely affect results. People over-simplify figure skating to a matter of jumps. Saying a figure skating routine is defined by 30 seconds of jumps would be like saying a soccer or hockey game is defined by 1 minute of play. Another thing is that a bad call in pro sports rarely affects an outcome, and if it does, it's just one game of an 80-game season so people forget about it. In figure skating, that 4-minute routine has to be seen as pristine otherwise people question the sports legitimacy. Nobody questions why basketball isn't a legit sport even though athletes miss shots and free throws all the time, or why tennis isn't a legit sport even though players double fault. The reality is, there are errors in every sport because if everyone did perfectly, it wouldn't necessarily be very interesting or impressive.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    ^ To be fair though, plenty of sports ignore mistakes or fouls that are committed without any penalty. Whenever you have a referee of sorts, you will get bad calls that can adversely affect results. People over-simplify figure skating to a matter of jumps. Saying a figure skating routine is defined by 30 seconds of jumps would be like saying a soccer or hockey game is defined by 1 minute of play. Another thing is that a bad call in pro sports rarely affects an outcome, and if it does, it's just one game of an 80-game season so people forget about it. In figure skating, that 4-minute routine has to be seen as pristine otherwise people question the sports legitimacy. Nobody questions why basketball isn't a legit sport even though athletes miss shots and free throws all the time, or why tennis isn't a legit sport even though players double fault. The reality is, there are errors in every sport because if everyone did perfectly, it wouldn't necessarily be very interesting or impressive.
    If you miss too many shots in basketball, you lose the game. If they started giving out bonus points for pretty shooting form and the team that missed the most shots won on account of the extra points for form, people would begin questioning the legitimacy of the sport. If foul balls began to count as fair if the batter's swing was beautiful...people would begin to question the legitimacy of the sport. I'm a baseball fan and love a pure swing. But you can still strike out with one.

  5. #35
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    I vote for deducting a percentage of the base value of the jump. That way, skaters still get credit for trying, and let's face it – if they don't get credit, what's the point of trying? I'm not sure about exactly how much, but if, for example, 40 percent were deducted for a fall on a fully-rotated triple axel, the base value of that element would be 5.1 points, still more than a clean double, but once you add in the appropriate grades-of execution, you get a much different picture.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by louisa05 View Post
    If you miss too many shots in basketball, you lose the game. If they started giving out bonus points for pretty shooting form and the team that missed the most shots won on account of the extra points for form, people would begin questioning the legitimacy of the sport. If foul balls began to count as fair if the batter's swing was beautiful...people would begin to question the legitimacy of the sport. I'm a baseball fan and love a pure swing. But you can still strike out with one.

    Such is the burden of figure skating and other judged sports that start with a perceived level of perfection. Hardcore skating fans will tend to focus on the number of jumps landed and performance that was achieved, whereas casual fans focus on the number of mistakes that were made. Athletes like basketball players will still be scrutinized and criticized for a poor performance, but their ability isn't usually questioned when they miss a shot. Whenever somebody asks me why figure skaters fall if they practice so much, my immediate response is "Why do basketball players miss free throws, why do punters miss field goals, why do hockey players miss shots when they all practice so much too?"

    Also, I disagree with those saying that falls are ruining figure skating. If anything, when all skaters go clean and there are no discernable differences - i.e. ice dancing - that's why people lose interest. Skaters need to challenge themselves and more skaters trying quads or high risk elements will get the sport much more respect.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Such is the burden of figure skating and other judged sports that start with a perceived level of perfection. Hardcore skating fans will tend to focus on the number of jumps landed and performance that was achieved, whereas casual fans focus on the number of mistakes that were made. Athletes like basketball players will still be scrutinized and criticized for a poor performance, but their ability isn't usually questioned when they miss a shot. Whenever somebody asks me why figure skaters fall if they practice so much, my immediate response is "Why do basketball players miss free throws, why do punters miss field goals, why do hockey players miss shots when they all practice so much too?"

    Also, I disagree with those saying that falls are ruining figure skating. If anything, when all skaters go clean and there are no discernable differences - i.e. ice dancing - that's why people lose interest. Skaters need to challenge themselves and more skaters trying quads or high risk elements will get the sport much more respect.
    I don't think it is an expectation of perfection that is the difference here. Male skaters perform in a free skate for 4:30 +/- 10 seconds and are limited to eight jumping passes. Saturday night, LeBron James played for over 39 minutes and took 22 shots. With defenders trying to stop him. It isn't exactly comparable. The comparison would be what percentage can LeBron get on the court alone in four and half minutes. I guarantee you it would be better than the 59% he shot Saturday night.

    And, btw, punters miss field goals because they are punters and punts are different than field goals.

  8. #38
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    I don't think the current penalty for falling is high enough, but I think awarding 0 points for the element is too far the other direction. I would like to see both an increased penalty for multiple falls and a mandatory negative affect on PCS scores. I don't mind seeing a skater who falls once, but is otherwise flawless win gold.

    I do mind watching someone fall two or three times and win gold. A single fall doesn't totally ruin the flow and feel of a program the way multiple falls do.

  9. #39
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    ISU seems to love the idea of multiplying numbers to make things complicated. How about a fallen element only gets like 70% of the base value, minus GOE plus one point deduction? They can add a "f" into the "info" column on the protocol....

  10. #40
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    Even the base values are a mess. Assuming the values here are accurate (http://gofigureskating.com/skills/jumps/compete.html), the difference between triple toes and salchows are 0.1, but between those two quads is 0.2. Oddly, the difference between triple salchows and loops is 0.9, but between those two quads is 0.3 (which is even less than the 0.4 difference between DOUBLE salchows and loops).

    ETA: Nevermind, that appears to have been fixed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_jumps

  11. #41
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    It seems many of you are conspiring to take away Hanyu's GPF title.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring
    It seems many of you are conspiring to take away Hanyu's GPF title.
    Not even close. The hardest penalty proposed here is 0 points for the element the skater fell on. Hanyu received 7.5 points for his 4S. take those ponts away, and his overall score is 285.75. Still over 5 points ahead of Chan overall.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Not even close. The hardest penalty proposed here is 0 points for the element the skater fell on. Hanyu received 7.5 points for his 4S. take those ponts away, and his overall score is 285.75. Still over 5 points ahead of Chan overall.
    I post hastily and stand corrected. I concede to supported arguments.

  14. #44
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    Suppose a greater penalty would be extracted for a second fall? Or the second half bonus be omitted for a fall. There are numerous possibilities. The issue is not insulting the general publics sensibilities. If someone falls twice and bests the skater who fell one once, there must be a clear easily understood and demonstrable reason. The system can be kept simple or made painfully complex. Simple is generally better

  15. #45
    ISU, stop promoting 2-foot skating!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    How about a 1 point deduction and no points for the attempted element.
    That would mean skaters not attempting jumps that aren't very reliable.

    The difficulty level would fall sharply and everybody would whine about the sport regressing, moving backward and so on, just like when IJS was originally introduced.

    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    It still gets on my nerves that skaters will attempt unreliable quads because they can still rack up points even if they fall on it.
    That's because quads have been overvalued in response to much fewer skaters attempting them and Lysacek's 'controversial' Olympics win.

    What nobody seemed to understand at the time was that IJS meant skaters had to start paying attention to steps, spins and program construction as a whole, for the first time ever. And this obviously affected their jumps. With time, we probably would have seen more quad attempts.

    I could still see arguments to make quads more worth of attempting but I think ISU has gone too far and increased the values too much.

    So the issue here isn't the fall deduction. It's quads being worth way too many points.

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