Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 29

Thread: Question about Ashley Wagner from a skating dummy

  1. #1
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    1

    Question about Ashley Wagner from a skating dummy

    I've followed gymnastics my entire life, but have just gotten into figure skating so I'm sorry if these questions may seem dumb. The Sochi Olympics was the first time I ever saw Ashley Wagner. Her programs have a much different style than most skaters. I don't mind different styles, but her programs weren't my favorite, I didn't like the choreography that much. However, she seemed to do well from what somebody who knows nothing about skating can tell, but she didn't score as high as I thought she would. Is there something I'm missing like less difficulty, or is it possible the judges didn't like the style/choreography programs? How do these scores compare to scores she got in the past internationally for these programs?

  2. #2
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    8,390
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingintheAir View Post
    I've followed gymnastics my entire life, but have just gotten into figure skating so I'm sorry if these questions may seem dumb. The Sochi Olympics was the first time I ever saw Ashley Wagner. Her programs have a much different style than most skaters. I don't mind different styles, but her programs weren't my favorite, I didn't like the choreography that much. However, she seemed to do well from what somebody who knows nothing about skating can tell, but she didn't score as high as I thought she would. Is there something I'm missing like less difficulty, or is it possible the judges didn't like the style/choreography programs? How do these scores compare to scores she got in the past internationally for these programs?
    Hi Walking in the Air, welcome to GS!


    Ashley had a few errors that cost her some major points, for one, the two-foot and UR in her 3F-3T combination. She ultimately only got 6.50 points, which is nearly three points below the BV of that jump (9.30). She also had some iffy landings on her 3L and 3F that lead to some negative execution marks. She also got a level 2 on a spin, which cost another point. My estimate is that she lost about 5.1 points, which have given her 133.

  3. #3
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    171
    Both her programs are generic and try to cover her shortcomings while bring out the best of her. This is not uncommon I think. But not falling doesn't mean clean skate. They(TV) should play slow motions on her moves and others to educate the viewers.

  4. #4
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    4,815
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingintheAir View Post
    ... is it possible the judges didn't like the style/choreography programs? How do these scores compare to scores she got in the past internationally for these programs?
    Wagner's component scores in Sochi for her individual SP and individual FS were personal bests.

  5. #5
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,876
    Someone on here once said something to the effect that Ashley skates at a level "above her natural abilities." That's not a direct quote, but the essence. I thought that's what she did here--and she was rewarded with her highest PCS scores. The problem is, however, her skating skills are not at the same level as her interpretative skills (and even her interpretative skills are narrow--she's very good at playing offbeat/aggressive/diva women, but not good at playing more traditionally "soft," "feminine" characters). I thought in terms of creating a character-driven program, her Delilah was one of the best of the night. But her skating skills are simply not as good. So all in all I think her placement was pretty accurate.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    334
    Ashley does not have a natural body type for skating. She has a more stout athletic, womanly figure. Skating is notorious for being run by bony light weight teenagers. They have an easier time jumping than "mature" women because their BMIs are low. That said Ashley's main issue with her skating is under rotation on. Say a decade ago, she could be a serious contender for a medal. But with the change in judging system, skating programs have become more difficult. You have to land at least one triple triple in every program to be at the top of your contention, which the legendary Michele Kwan barely ever did. Again, Ashley simply doesn't have the spring/proportional lightness to complete these jumps with ease. I suspect it MIGHT just be a matter of her conditioning. Maybe if she got a better trainer/had more self discipline she would be better. But yeah, the sport is riddled with 18+ year old women who hit a ceiling when their boobs/hips come in, and retire.

  7. #7
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Left field
    Posts
    3,426
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingintheAir View Post
    I've followed gymnastics my entire life, but have just gotten into figure skating so I'm sorry if these questions may seem dumb. The Sochi Olympics was the first time I ever saw Ashley Wagner. Her programs have a much different style than most skaters. I don't mind different styles, but her programs weren't my favorite, I didn't like the choreography that much. However, she seemed to do well from what somebody who knows nothing about skating can tell, but she didn't score as high as I thought she would. Is there something I'm missing like less difficulty, or is it possible the judges didn't like the style/choreography programs? How do these scores compare to scores she got in the past internationally for these programs?
    I assume that as someone new to skating, a few of the abbreviations and terms used by previous posters won't be clear, so I'll give it a shot too. I'll add that I like Ashley and felt that she was slightly underscored in both programs.

    As others have noted, Ashley has a problem with URs - underrotations. What this means is that when she attempts a triple jump, she does not always complete three revolutions, which is why she also lands on two feet sometimes. This might not look as bad as a skater who falls, but it is actually penalized quite severely: because the revolutions are not completed, she does not get the same value she would for a triple jump, and her grade of execution for the element also drops. These things add up. I think the technical panel, whose job is to determine whether jumps are done correctly and what level non-jump elements merit, was harsher with Ashley than it was with other skaters: for instance, there are ladies who "flutz" - whose lutz jump takes off from the wrong edge, which should incur a deduction - but who did not get called on it at the Olympics.

    As for her component scores, I think there are two issues at play: first, components are affected by things like reputation and standing, and Ashley is now the American no. 2 rather than the no. 1. In addition, these marks tend to cluster around the skating skills component, and while Ashley has good skating skills, others are better - most notably Carolina Kostner.

  8. #8
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    105
    Just to add to what others have said, as a non-skater myself, I found it very helpful to look at the protocols (the detailed scoring sheets) for various competitions. That helped me understand what jumps were considered more difficult than others, compare the base value of programs, look at grade of execution (GOE, or the quality marks) etc. Usually, for every major competition someone posts a link at some point. You can also find them through the ISU website. For the Olympics, this is the results page http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/
    The right hand column that's titled "Reports" gives the judges score sheets for each part of the competition. Looking at the ladies results might make things clearer - if you want that level of detail

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    334
    Also, during the competition Johnny Weir noted that skaters who spin clockwise sometimes have their landings scrutinized more harshly. So that might have something to do with her deductions. Also stupid *** Russian/Eastern European judges inflating component scores.

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    161
    Quote Originally Posted by sk8in View Post
    Also, during the competition Johnny Weir noted that skaters who spin clockwise sometimes have their landings scrutinized more harshly. So that might have something to do with her deductions. Also stupid *** Russian/Eastern European judges inflating component scores.
    Ashley got personal best PCS here, so your last sentence makes little sense and I won't comment further on it.

    The issue with Wagner is that she isn't that great of a skater. I'm talking about the actual skating, stroking, etc between the jumps not saying she is a bad athlete. She has some of the shallowest edges of the top flight skater, the weakest turns, the most labored stroking. Additionally her jumps are not that great and she has built in deductions elsewhere. Her spins are not competitive, except for her layback on the odd occasion where she maintains enough speed to get enough bielmann rotations in for level 4 (not close to Lipnitskaya, Sotnikova or Gold on that element though).

    Ashley landed forwards and tow footed here opening combo. She also basically skated and glides forwards almost across the entire rink surface into it. She lost a lot of points on ot and the entrance/exit and execution prettying doesn't give her room to gaining GOE on it even if it were to be clean.

    Her spins were super slow.

    Her footwork was extremely shallow. More so than some group 1 or 2 skaters (Ashley admits that she is not good at footwork and tends to have flats and shallow edges often).

    Fact and the matter is moth Lipnitakaya and Wager were lucky so many skaters also are errors that allowed them to still be on that last group. That 3-3 was so bad that she probably would have gotten more points with a 3-2 flip-toe in both the short and the long.

    I think that was her best performance of the program artistically, but technically her quality just wasn't that great. Ashley is most disappointed that Gracie beat her with a fall, but looking at the two programs anyone should be able to agree the judges got that right. I could feel the tension in the interviews they have, and Polina was like "... awkward ..."

    Edit: Please excuse my typos. I'm on a mobile device. Should still be readable, though.

  11. #11
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Kenai, AK
    Posts
    18,662
    Quote Originally Posted by bsfan View Post
    Both her programs are generic and try to cover her shortcomings while bring out the best of her. This is not uncommon I think. But not falling doesn't mean clean skate. They(TV) should play slow motions on her moves and others to educate the viewers.
    her two foot landings didn't need slowmo the other night, they were pretty blatant, and I'm a huge fan of hers. I LOVE her choreography though. She's not the pwetty pwincess skater like so many others, it's refreshing.

    I have to say, I don't think she's aware of when she twofoots her landings. She is pretty good with accepting protocols when she knows what she did wrong, but she's always surprised when she gets dinged for a bad landing... I wonder that she just has no clue she's done it because her body takes over in that moment and all she knows is she didn't fall?

  12. #12
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    8,390
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    her two foot landings didn't need slowmo the other night, they were pretty blatant, and I'm a huge fan of hers. I LOVE her choreography though. She's not the pwetty pwincess skater like so many others, it's refreshing.

    I have to say, I don't think she's aware of when she twofoots her landings. She is pretty good with accepting protocols when she knows what she did wrong, but she's always surprised when she gets dinged for a bad landing... I wonder that she just has no clue she's done it because her body takes over in that moment and all she knows is she didn't fall?
    I wonder about that too actually. And I am also surprised that Rafeal doesn't point it out when she got out of the ice. I recalled that even after Jason Brown had that electric performance at Nationals, Kori was still saying. "You two-footed that 3A landing, you were slow here, etc. etc..."

    I think one thing to consider is that Ashley did OK considering all that was thrown at her in the last year. Her parents got divorced, she ended a relationship, she had a bitter spilt with her choreographer/coach and had to find a new one....I think she did well considering what was probably a pretty emotionally draining year.

  13. #13
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,350
    I think Gracie finishing ahead of her even with a fall tells her that the judges look at Gracie as the US #1 Lady now.

  14. #14
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Kenai, AK
    Posts
    18,662
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I wonder about that too actually. And I am also surprised that Rafeal doesn't point it out when she got out of the ice. I recalled that even after Jason Brown had that electric performance at Nationals, Kori was still saying. "You two-footed that 3A landing, you were slow here, etc. etc..."
    especially since when she fell at nationals he called her a chicken.

  15. #15
    On the Ice
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by sk8in View Post
    Ashley does not have a natural body type for skating. She has a more stout athletic, womanly figure. Skating is notorious for being run by bony light weight teenagers. They have an easier time jumping than "mature" women because their BMIs are low. That said Ashley's main issue with her skating is under rotation on. Say a decade ago, she could be a serious contender for a medal. But with the change in judging system, skating programs have become more difficult. You have to land at least one triple triple in every program to be at the top of your contention, which the legendary Michele Kwan barely ever did. Again, Ashley simply doesn't have the spring/proportional lightness to complete these jumps with ease. I suspect it MIGHT just be a matter of her conditioning. Maybe if she got a better trainer/had more self discipline she would be better. But yeah, the sport is riddled with 18+ year old women who hit a ceiling when their boobs/hips come in, and retire.
    Not to go off topic too much, but I did a little research (on the MK Fan Page) and Michelle Kwan did complete a 3T/3T in competition 11 times.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •