- Joined
- Aug 31, 2003
At least Russian skaters all skated well, compare to Vancouver were north Americans got huge support from judges in Mens and Ice dance
Russian (Supposed) inflations and their Olympic consequences
- Thread starter Mista Ekko
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
As opposed to using bungee cords in the free dance (and not as a fashion accessory)? And skating clean without relying on a PCS boost (something that people tend to forget about Lysacek vs Plushenko)?
Well uh ok then.
Again, this is not accurate since Men's PCS are factored by 2 and Ladies' by 1.6. Also, you're comparing bad (TEB) vs. very good (GPF) competitions for Yuzuru and good (Europeans) vs. very good (Olympics) competitions for Adelina. For a more accurate comparison, you could take Adelina's Cup of China FS.
Skating skills have nothing whatsoever to do with jumps difficulty. please refer to: http://www.usfsa.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf
Base value has nothing to do with PCS.
Across both programs, Mao's TES was 101.32 and Yulia's 101.77, so Yulia was barely ahead in TES. Why should she have beaten Mao when she's also clearly behind in PCS?
I didn't say that. What I said was that as long as Adelina went clean (or almost clean, as it were), Yuna could't have beat her no matter how well she skated. This shouldn't have happened, since Yuna's advantage in PCS should have compensated for Adelina's advantage in TES. The fact that this was in reality a close competition was not reflected in the scores that had Adelina winning the FS by more than 5 points.
You seem to think that PCS is some throwaway mark that is gifted to veteran skaters on the basis of longevity and reputation when in reality those of them that are getting high PCS had to work throughout their careers to improve their overall quality of skating in order to receive them. Honing the skills required to get good PCS takes just as much effort and training as improving in jumps and spins, or else they'd all have the skating skills of a Carolina Kostner or a Patrick Chan, for example. This is why I find your reasoning that younger skaters should automatically be given those types of marks just to they can be competitive a bit weird. If they are at a disadvantage in PCS, they are free to maximize their TES and/or actually improve their skating to the point where they earn higher marks.
Yuna doesn't do a 3Loop because of injury. it wouldn't have mattered anyway, since she wouldn't have beaten Adelina here even with a 3Loop.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2014
What did the bbc commentators say about Sotnikova's win ? I really want to know their opinion because they are always so objectiv 
What did the bbc commentators say about Sotnikova's win ? I really want to know their opinion because they are always so objectiv
Only Cousins made comments. He thought that before the marks came up Kim would win based on her reputation and longevity in business. But he said that it was close competition and could have gone either way. But really nobody cared enough about it.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2013
This is the last time for any interaction with you. First of all, you made a false accusation that I was spamming. Even if you refuse to acknowledge the numbers doesn't mean they are not there for all to see, you insist that one is legitimate but the other isn't based on nothing but your own bias and prejudice. There's no point in furthering the conversation with such lack of respect for honesty, facts and consistency. You keep making allegations without putting out your PROOF.
Going further back till you get a Sotnikova PCS inflation that satisfies your personal bias, ie., shifting your goal posts, then one competition before TEB (Nov 15) at SC (Oct 24), Hanyu's LP PCS was even lower, so the jump in PCS that Hanyu benefited from was also greater, and so on.
Let's compare LP PCS
Adelina went from 60(CoC)-69(Euro)-74(Sochi), Hanyu from 76(SC)-81(TEB)-92(GPF)
TES, Adelina went from 50 (CoC) to 75 (highest), +25, Hanyu from 87 (SC) to 102 (highest) +15
BOTH benefited from rising PCS, BUT
Adelina's TES marks also markedly improved, from 50 at Cup of China to 62 at Euro 2014 to 75 at Sochi, a +25 pt TES increase, so her skating improved rapidly overall.
Hanyu's TES was 87 (SC) to 102 (GPF) to 89 at Sochi, so in fact his technical elements only improved by +15 compared to Adelina's +25!!
Hanyu's PCS rose much faster than his TES improvement, whereas Adelina's PCS rose much slower than her TES improvement!
So whose PCS rose faster?
Oh yeah, what are those difficult entrances and exits, flow, edges, speed, that add points to the Jumps? Dance moves?
This is your strawman, I didn't say they did, yet it was you who said Hanyu skated badly at TEB so his PCS was lower, etc..
Again, what exactly is your point? Mao messed up her SP, to 16th place! If she hadn't, then with her LP, she would have beaten Yulia and possibly even Yuna to be OGM.
You don't make sense at all...a skater with higher BV will always beat one with lower BV?
And right there at the very same Olympics, Hanyu with his insanely difficult LP and high BV, much higher than Chan's, would have lost if Chan had not skated even worse. There you go, higher BV doesn't mean you win lower BV....urgh...isn't this rudimentary knowledge??!! Hanyu, by falling and making many mistakes, because you know, his program was DIFFICULT, handed Chan the gold and Chan LOST it because he couldn't skate his easier program clean. If he had, then Gold is HIS.
A more difficult program is, you know, more difficult to skate well.
So Hanyu and Sot took much higher risks than Kim or Chan, they are more likely to fall, to mess up their skate. A higher BV isn't the same as a higher PCS, because they still HAVE to go and earn those TES marks, undergo punishing body-breaking training to execute those quad and triple combos, etc. unlike PCS which are already *in the bag* on the day of competition, no efforts needed. If they have to close 20+ PCS gap, it's not even at all humanly possible for them to EVER get gold, no matter how much higher they try to push their BV, how many more quads or triple combos do you want to make them jump.??Like Fernandez said when asked about his strategy for closing the gap with Chan, "Do 10 quads?"
It is only with a level PCS playing field that competitions are FAIR, i.e. a better skater wins based on a better skate.
Who says these PCS were "automatically gifted"? Are you saying that Hanyu and Sotnikova didn't work their body parts off to get to their current PCS? Why were they falling all over their programs before they finally got them right? They're skating more difficult contents to try to beat the reigning champions. If they fall, mess up, etc. they still lose.
I was at first shocked at the inflation of PCS Hanyu received at GPF, there were threads about it, but I concluded then that it will be battle of TES at Olympics. There was a decision beginning with GPF to level the PCS playing field for the new rank of young skaters, and I agreed with the decision. Imagine a 100 m race where Usain Bolt is given a 5m advantage at the next Olympics...because well, he's a veteran and he earned it! He trained for many more years than the new guys! Only in figure skating....
If she executed the 3loop well, she would have earned at least 5+ more points, enough for gold, as this is almost exactly the marks by which she lost to Adelina.
It is enough, I have made my point, there's no need to continue this further and bore others.
Let it go already. I wasn't accusing you of literally being a spammer, what I was referring to is that you posted variations of the same message on several threads (which you did). It's accepted usage of the term.
Oh yeah, what are those difficult entrances and exits, flow, edges, speed, that add points to the Jumps? Dance moves?
Those should be rewarded in the Transitions component of PCS (& difficult entrances and exits and good speed can also be rewarded in jump GOE).
You were the one that were implying that because they had high base values they earned high PCS (exact quote: "Who else today can skate at their level of BV? So yes, their higher PCS is earned too.").
We were talking about GPF, not the Olympics. If we were discussing the Olympics, this would directly contradict your argument, since in the Olympics LP Mao beat Yulia by 6.75 points in TES, but Yulia actually got higher PCS (!!!). So much for the poor young skaters being disadvantaged against the veterans.
I agree. You obviously have little regard for actually trying to understand what I wrote or, for that matter, presenting a proper argument instead of repeating the same things over and over again (with little connection to what I was saying). I suggest you 1) take this less seriously and 2) take the time to actually read and understand what people are replying to you instead of going for knee-jerk reactions. It's just figure skating, seriously.
By the way, still haven't heard your apology for lashing out at me when mistaking me for another poster, so I'd say we're pretty even
.
What did the bbc commentators say about Sotnikova's win ? I really want to know their opinion because they are always so objectiv
I remember the guy repeatedly saying Kim deserved gold after her FS, and then there was some silence after her score was revealed.
Yeah, and I think the woman said, "Surely this HAS to be the gold!"
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
This is the last time for any interaction with you. First of all, you made a false accusation that I was spamming. Even if you refuse to acknowledge the numbers doesn't mean they are not there for all to see, you insist that one is legitimate but the other isn't based on nothing but your own bias and prejudice. There's no point in furthering the conversation with such lack of respect for honesty, facts and consistency. You keep making allegations without putting out your PROOF.
Going further back till you get a Sotnikova PCS inflation that satisfies your personal bias, ie., shifting your goal posts, then one competition before TEB (Nov 15) at SC (Oct 24), Hanyu's LP PCS was even lower, so the jump in PCS that Hanyu benefited from was also greater, and so on.
Let's compare LP PCS
Adelina went from 60(CoC)-69(Euro)-74(Sochi), Hanyu from 76(SC)-81(TEB)-92(GPF)
TES, Adelina went from 50 (CoC) to 75 (highest), +25, Hanyu from 87 (SC) to 102 (highest) +15
BOTH benefited from rising PCS, BUT
Adelina's TES marks also markedly improved, from 50 at Cup of China to 62 at Euro 2014 to 75 at Sochi, a +25 pt TES increase, so her skating improved rapidly overall.
Hanyu's TES was 87 (SC) to 102 (GPF) to 89 at Sochi, so in fact his technical elements only improved by +15 compared to Adelina's +25!!
Hanyu's PCS rose much faster than his TES improvement, whereas Adelina's PCS rose much slower than her TES improvement!
So whose PCS rose faster?
Oh yeah, what are those difficult entrances and exits, flow, edges, speed, that add points to the Jumps? Dance moves?
This is your strawman, I didn't say they did, yet it was you who said Hanyu skated badly at TEB so his PCS was lower, etc..
Again, what exactly is your point? Mao messed up her SP, to 16th place! If she hadn't, then with her LP, she would have beaten Yulia and possibly even Yuna to be OGM.
You don't make sense at all...a skater with higher BV will always beat one with lower BV?
And right there at the very same Olympics, Hanyu with his insanely difficult LP and high BV, much higher than Chan's, would have lost if Chan had not skated even worse. There you go, higher BV doesn't mean you win lower BV....urgh...isn't this rudimentary knowledge??!! Hanyu, by falling and making many mistakes, because you know, his program was DIFFICULT, handed Chan the gold and Chan LOST it because he couldn't skate his easier program clean. If he had, then Gold is HIS.
A more difficult program is, you know, more difficult to skate well.
Like Fernandez said when asked about his strategy for closing the gap with Chan, "Do 10 quads?"
It is only with a level PCS playing field that competitions are FAIR, i.e. a better skater wins based on a better skate.
Who says these PCS were "automatically gifted"? Are you saying that Hanyu and Sotnikova didn't work their body parts off to get to their current PCS? Why were they falling all over their programs before they finally got them right? They're skating more difficult contents to try to beat the reigning champions. If they fall, mess up, etc. they still lose.
I was at first shocked at the inflation of PCS Hanyu received at GPF, there were threads about it, but I concluded then that it will be battle of TES at Olympics. There was a decision beginning with GPF to level the PCS playing field for the new rank of young skaters, and I agreed with the decision. Imagine a 100 m race where Usain Bolt is given a 5m advantage at the next Olympics...because well, he's a veteran and he earned it! He trained for many more years than the new guys! Only in figure skating....
If she executed the 3loop well, she would have earned at least 5+ more points, enough for gold, as this is almost exactly the marks by which she lost to Adelina.
It is enough, I have made my point, there's no need to continue this further and bore others.
As long as choreography is a component score then programs are kind of a dance. Also, skating is more than just a physical endeavor. it is obvious that Yuna and Carolina put some thought into their skating and worked their choreography. If you can tell me what Adelina was doing to honor and her choreography (?) and interpret her music, then please tell me. PCS don't need to be leveled. Jumping beans like Adelina just need to spend a little more time working on these elements and actually earn their PCS marks.
It was almost galling to see her pretend to be an artist at the Gala (two yellow flags?). it was so transparent. It was like "See, I'm as good an artist as Yuna and Carolina." Right... we believe you Adelina, lol.
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2013
Actually she only received one edge call out of three lutzes at SC and her GOE was 1.20. In the team event she received one edge call and in the individual event received one edge call. Her change of edge is always boderline not an obvious change of edge so it's more murky.
It is sad that some people still does not understand what's going on
http://www.feverskating.com/fevers/65081423 read this.
http://www.feverskating.com/fevers/65081423 read this.
Not entirely sure. I think the intention is to show that other young skaters also benefit from inflated PCS - like Yuzuru, the young unknown who placed 3rd and 4th at 2012 and 2013 Worlds, respectively. While it is true that he is overmarked on PCS, my feeling is that this has as much to do with Patrick as it does with Yuzuru - more exactly, the Powers That Be decided to somehow "punish" Patrick for the controversies of his last 2 World wins by making sure he wouldn't be able to win major competitions again with big mistakes, instead of actually addressing the flaws in the scoring that made those wins possible in the first place. For instance, the judges still don't differentiate properly between the various category of PCS, something that Patrick has benefited from several times; while he has excellent SS and very good TR, he has also received very high PE and IN with several disruptive mistakes, lagging behind the music etc. (though to his credit, he has worked on improving his interpretation). Something else to consider is that Yuzuru has actually improved his skating, especially his SS, since moving to Orser and he has good speed and flow (for 3/4 of a FS, at least
) and nice interpretation when given decent material (unlike last year's FS, that he sleepwalked through all season). Of course, my hope is that he continues to improve and corrects his flaws (posture, sloppy lines) so that those PCS seem more justified .- Joined
- Feb 14, 2014
Such a shame !!! People like Hamilton or Sandra B. should also speak out, but they don't have the courage to do it or they are blind. I really liked Kurt Browning's comments about the whole thing : "You don't become a better skater in such a short period of time" or that her components SHOULDN'T be near Yuna's
Won't the IJS eventually run out of points to give if they keep inflating the scores like they have been? If you give someone a +2 today for a GOE and next year, when they improve, you give them a +3, what do you give them the year after that if they continue to improve??? What's after "perfection" in this IJS system?
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2013
But her actual skating between elements which is what PCS is supposed to judge is not. PCS and jumps are supposed to be disconnected until jumping errors start to completely wreck the program. Having said that though from what she did in the SP her PCS should have been about 30 with a max of 31. I haven't actually seen her LP, but judging from what the protocol says and what she did at Nationals combined ith what went on with other PCS I would put her at 62 max.
When the youngsters actually show skills and maturity they should get the PCS. Not all youngsters will grow in same pace. But you surely saw the graph that demonstrates selective inflation for two Russian girls? I thought Kim's skating skill improved immensely compared to 4 years ago and Adelina's is not even in the same league. Kim floats on the ice. Adelina juggles. When Adelina shows the mastery of Kim and Costner, no one will object to her PCS. There are even people advocating Yulia's 70+ PCS - to me that really shows nothing but delusion. While they kind of quieted down, it was unbelievable during Yulia hype to hear how Yulia's PCS deserves to be around Kim's from some members here. You yourself acknowledged their skills are not up to par with Kim/Costner/Asada: Shouldn't they be reflected in PCS? What is the PCS for? People are not arguing that Adelina/Yulia should be held down when they show the same skating skill as Kim/Costner. People are arguing that their skills are not there yet and the PCS should reflect that fact.
PCS do have criteria in each of its columns. The judges in this event completely ignored every one of them. (9.75/9.75/9.75/9.5/9.5 - seriously?)
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
I hear you but I don't agree about rochette. She has some of the hardest routines/programs - more intricate than Yuna and her power on her jumps besides Mirai didn't have the skating skills to compete with Joannie and her program to Carment was very juniorish or Miss America - she skated throught he music without the maturity and sophisitcation or passsin that Carmen shoudl be skated too.
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