Russian (Supposed) inflations and their Olympic consequences

Eladola said:

I know i'm a big fan of a bunch of Russian skaters, But i do want to get a focused debate going on this, Before the heavy competition starts:

-Did the Russian skaters benefit a bit too much in PCS?
-Did the crowd influence the judges a bit too much?
-Did the judges penalize a little less for Russian skaters who made borderline mistakes and so so executions ?
-Have non Russian skaters who are threatening Russian ones been over scrutinized ?


Possible examples so far:
-P\B of France having the biggest technical base mark of the night, But losing to B\S of Russia on PCS and GOE, a placing which cost France it's 5th place in the finals.
-Plushenko having a good clean skate, with high 8's for PCS placing him over Chan of Canada with a flawed skate, Which wouldn't of happened with a couple less points for said PCS.
-Osmond of Canada (Russia's main rival) going clean but finishing 5th with low 7's for PCS.
-D\R of Canada getting high 7's for PCS for a very risky and inventive SP, while Russian mega favorites V\T getting high 9's.
-Lipnitskaya of Russia getting + 1.40 for her Lutz combo, Which in every other competition this year got -1's because of it's takeoff, Thus finishing ahead of Clean Kostner.
-Plushenko getting +GOE for his wonky triple axle.

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I don't know about the others because I didn't watch their skating much before the Olympics to say anything, but for Julia her flutz is always bordeline. Sometimes it is called harshly, sometimes it is not. Regardless, if it had been called, just like at Europeans the combination was fully rotated and had fairly good flow out so she would have received what she received there which would have still kept her in first place. In the short program at Europeans the combination wasn't quite as good as in the freeskate and with the edge edge call she went from what would have been a range of 1's and 2's to a range of -1's and 0's. Rewarded for the good aspects while penalized for the bad. Final GOE -0.20. In the freeskate the combination was better, but the edge call took her from a range of 1's, 2's and 3's to -1's, 0's and 1's. Final GOE 0.00.

I have not seen a HD video yet which shows the jump from the proper angle to determine whether she was on an outside edge, flat of the blade or had changed to an inside edge at the moment of take-off. Anyway, removing the GOE, she would have still been in 1st place. By nearly a point.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I don't see why this is so unexpected that Plushenko, Lipnitskaia, B/S and S/K have all received excessively generous PCS. And low balling of non-Russians' GOE or PCS scores, overlooking Russian flutzes, is to be expected.

It's Cup of Russia all over again.

I will say however that Russia deserves the lead because they have been extremely on. S/K have had the only real error out of 5 Russian performances and that is an incredible show of team consistency.

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Absolutely agree, the Russians are in first at the moment because only one error has been made, Canadian skaters have made 3, and the Americans are third because Jeremy had a bad day.(though strategically if they wanted to have a chance of winning he was the guy to skate, he had way more scoring potential than Brown and could have scored anywhere from 55-95 and I'm sure USFSA knows it as well). The rest of the American team was more than strong enough to bring them back into a medal position, which I'm sure USFSA also knew quite well. This would have been a much closer competition had both Patrick and Jeremy nailed the short. Plushenko would have more than likely been 4th instead of 2nd and Canada and the U.S would have more than likely had 8,9 or 10 in the mens short. The ladies event was a bit off in placement, but it's figure skating and it happens all the time, it's a judged sport. Their have been some snowboarders complaining also.(apparently a judged sport). I just hope figure skating becomes more transparent for the future. Does it value difficulty or quality. Julia did a very difficult program with an apparent edge problem. Carolina is what figure skating is and has exceptional quality in between the elements and incredible height and flow on easier jumps. I thought the Chinese girl was under marked but she's from China so it's expected I guess. Katelyn, Ashely and Mao could have ended up in any order between the three of them, but to be honest I though Mao was the weakest today, she got away with an under rotation on her 2Lo and that may have changed the outcome. I thought the tech panel was weak and inconsistent because of Mao's missed call and Julia's missed edge. Judging is judging and judges do what they want to. I don't think anybody watches skating anymore expecting to agree with the judges. Its the olympics and it's about great performances and the team event brought us some already.

bekalc said:

I think though if Kostner were to go clean and Julia/Adelina were to go clean, she'd deserve to beat them.

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ITA. Carolina's skating and interpretation skills are AMAZING. Julia is crazy strong technically, but she's not a performer. Outside of required elements, her programs are actually boring. Let her outscore everyone and their mother in TES, but for crying out loud, her PCS is a joke.
And I don't even like Kostner. But I know great skating when I see it. I also would've given higher PCS to Ashley. That girl knows how to sell her program.
Actually, PCS wise, I would have them:
1. Kostner
2. Wagner
3. Asada
4. Lipnitskaya

chiocciola said:

Salt Lake City

Gold for Hughes??? 5,6 for Slutskaya's artistry))) Scandalous second gold for Canadians...

Vancouver

Scandalous scores for Chan, Dube/Davidson, bronze for Rochette... Gold for safe Evan with no quad?

It happens every time.

What you guys are saying is double standards. You're ok with winnings of those who are immature, young but North Americans (Lipinski, Hughes, Gold) or mature but not good enough in TES as long as they're North Americans (Evan, Rochette...).

All the underrotations and falls will not be counted for Russians and will be for others. Face it! Nobody's going to rob those who truly deserve it. If they don't fall. Men: Hanyu or Chan, Women: Mao or Yu-Na. Pairs: VT or SS. Ice dance: VM or DW.

VT will win if they don't make major mistakes. What's wrong with that? BS or IK will get the bronze if they are 100% clean. Julia and Adelina will medal if they're clean, can win if Mao and Yu-Na make mistakes.

What's wrong with that?

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Yes, yes, and yes to this! Why people think that this happens only in Russia? Also, this year, GPF - Japan - Mao winning FS over Julia, was it deserved?
Also, you will never prove me that a person, who is quite weaker in TES should win. SP, maybe, that is acceptable, but as for FS, sorry, I would rather see Julia being higher with all these difficult elements and an amazing and touching programm,than Carolina, for example, whose BV is quite weak.

MsLiinaLii said:

Yes, yes, and yes to this! Why people think that this happens only in Russia? Also, this year, GPF - Japan - Mao winning FS over Julia, was it deserved?
Also, you will never prove me that a person, who is quite weaker in TES should win. SP, maybe, that is acceptable, but as for FS, sorry, I would rather see Julia being higher with all these difficult elements and an amazing and touching programm,than Carolina, for example, whose BV is quite weak.

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Just because something supposedly biased judging happened elsewhere, Doesn't mean everyone needs to reciprocate and it's fine if they do,
Also, It's perfectly OK for us to discuss what's happening THIS week without reflecting on former decades, Please.

Eladola said:

I know i'm a big fan of a bunch of Russian skaters, But i do want to get a focused debate going on this, Before the heavy competition starts:

-Did the Russian skaters benefit a bit too much in PCS?
-Did the crowd influence the judges a bit too much?
-Did the judges penalize a little less for Russian skaters who made borderline mistakes and so so executions ?
-Have non Russian skaters who are threatening Russian ones been over scrutinized ?


Possible examples so far:
-P\B of France having the biggest technical base mark of the night, But losing to B\S of Russia on PCS and GOE, a placing which cost France it's 5th place in the finals.
-Plushenko having a good clean skate, with high 8's for PCS placing him over Chan of Canada with a flawed skate, Which wouldn't of happened with a couple less points for said PCS.
-Osmond of Canada (Russia's main rival) going clean but finishing 5th with low 7's for PCS.
-D\R of Canada getting high 7's for PCS for a very risky and inventive SP, while Russian mega favorites V\T getting high 9's.
-Lipnitskaya of Russia getting + 1.40 for her Lutz combo, Which in every other competition this year got -1's because of it's takeoff, Thus finishing ahead of Clean Kostner.
-Plushenko getting +GOE for his wonky triple axle.

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Yes! I completely agree with this. I'm kind of annoyed at how everyone is kind of letting the overscoring slide.

sky_fly20 said:

boo hoo, Canada is robbed of the gold
Russia is evil and dont deserve any medals

FYI, about your scrutinez joke
Plushenko SP he only got didnt got all 8 in component yet still would have him enough to beat Chan's mess of a SP
Carolina ha never beaten Julia in a SP this season, as clean skates continue the PCS will rise, that is a fact
and lol, D/R innovation ? it has nothing to do with PCS !!!

also to remind you, D/R have terrible skating skills, atrocious form, Duhamel is build like a truck driver thus her lines in the air are ugly
they deserve PCS in 6 and 7, thats a joke if you compare them to V/T

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"D is built like a truck driver...."
WTH? That is such a mean and untrue statement. I agree w/ eladola

"Carolina ha never beaten Julia in a SP this season"
and this is exactly what were arguing over: carolina deserves more than julia but is getting less. Your argument is like saying "Well, Julia is overscored, so we have to continue overscoring fer."

.

mumboman said:

Katelyn, Ashely and Mao could have ended up in any order between the three of them, but to be honest I though Mao was the weakest today, she got away with an under rotation on her 2Lo and that may have changed the outcome. I thought the tech panel was weak and inconsistent because of Mao's missed call and Julia's missed edge.

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You're absolutely correct that the Technical Panel made a serious error in not downgrading Mao's combination. Although credited as a 3Lo+2Lo combination, it should have been downgraded to a 2Lo+1Lo combination (which effectively would have placed Mao behind Ashley & Katelyn). Glad to see someone else picked up on this error!

For those interested, here is a discussion & video analysis clearly showing both jumps in the 3Lo+2Lo combination were severely under-rotated.

Julia's PCS IS CRAZZZZZZZY.

60 at GPF and 69 at Olympic?

Gold's 3-3 got 0.4 GOE and Julia's 3-3 got 1.4 of GOE. Seriously?

Julia's PCS is 9 point higher than Gold. what a crazy score.

Judges gave +GOE on Julia's terrible 2A(BBC commentator Robin Cousins said 'terrible 2A)

Just because something supposedly biased judging happened elsewhere, Doesn't mean everyone needs to reciprocate and it's fine if they do,
Also, It's perfectly OK for us to discuss what's happening THIS week without reflecting on former decades, Please.

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I agree. Just because it happened elsewhere, how's it perfectly okay happening here? Please. And it's kind of too glaringly obvious.

I expected Olympic inflation, yes, not a selective one. Julia's GOEs a bit too much to stomach, especially compared to what Gold and Osmond and Ashley have gotten.

Julia should get no +GOE on her flutz combo- not just for the flutz, but the first jump is massively prerotated (looked quite ur'ed to me), and she visibly muscles herself to get off the 3toe. Nor pretty at all. Like other posters have said, Yuna's and Gracies combo are literally 2-3 times bigger in scale, with no edge problem. And her PCS smells like home cooking for sure.
As for the consequences, if the scoring is so funny that you could smell the stink through your computer screen, then it might extend all the way up to 2018 Pyeongchang. I mean, Russia is not the only country that can play this game. Does Russia want a repeat of Vancouver? It might have the best skaters by that time, but will Korea care if any of them get the gold, or even podium? They will not forget if Yuna gets shafted in her last skating event, and they probably won't give a damn if there's a scandal that exceeds even Roy Jones in 1988, if it means getting even.

Eladola said:

-Plushenko having a good clean skate, with high 8's for PCS placing him over Chan of Canada with a flawed skate, Which wouldn't of happened with a couple less points for said PCS.

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LOL. Plushenko's been getting funny PCS for years at this point. By "all 8s," I assume that you mean that his total averaged PCS score? I suggest you look at all of the judges' scores for PCS: they range from 6s to 9s. But this isn't a new phenomenon, like I said, it's been happening for years. I think judges just don't know how to give him PCS, period.

So I don't necessarily think that Plushenko's scores are "reflective" of a judging scandal. It's more like a "Plushenko-is-a-legend-but-he's-not-in-the-form-he-used-to-be-in" inflation.

bekalc said:

I think though if Kostner were to go clean and Julia/Adelina were to go clean, she'd deserve to beat them.

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Definitely. Carolina should be able to easily beat Julia if they were both to go perfectly clean. I'd even wager Akiko from the National should've been able to beat Julia. Given how things stood this season alone, a clean Gold should have at least a chance (and a very good one at that) to go against Julia, toe to toe, but not from the scores they got from the team game just now.

Oh lord. I can't even imagine how the Koreans would react if they actually shaft Yuna's score in obvious ways somehow and impede her chance of winning her second gold. Can you imagine what would happen if they both go clean and Julia wins by a tiny margin granted by higher PCS scores? What if they clearly and obviously shaft both Yuna and Mao? Both Yuna and Mao fans will unite (that will be a sight to see, actually) for a take down. That will break the Internet.

OMG the figure skating scandal that broke the internet for sure --- oh pretty please let it happen hahahahahaha And I agree with you vegarin on all counts!

vegarin said:

Definitely. Carolina should be able to easily beat Julia if they were both to go perfectly clean. I'd even wager Akiko from the National should've been able to beat Julia. Given how things stood this season alone, a clean Gold should have at least a chance (and a very good one at that) to go against Julia, toe to toe, but not from the scores they got from the team game just now.

Oh lord. I can't even imagine how the Koreans would react if they actually shaft Yuna's score in obvious ways somehow and impede her chance of winning her second gold. Can you imagine what would happen if they both go clean and Julia wins by a tiny margin granted by higher PCS scores? What if they clearly and obviously shaft both Yuna and Mao? Both Yuna and Mao fans will unite (that will be a sight to see, actually) for a take down. That will break the Internet.

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vegarin said:

Oh lord. I can't even imagine how the Koreans would react if they actually shaft Yuna's score in obvious ways somehow and impede her chance of winning her second gold. Can you imagine what would happen if they both go clean and Julia wins by a tiny margin granted by higher PCS scores? What if they clearly and obviously shaft both Yuna and Mao? Both Yuna and Mao fans will unite (that will be a sight to see, actually) for a take down. That will break the Internet.

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Koreans are already outraged at lipnitskaia's high score. They think she's a great spinner for sure- but those jumps, even they know she had the wrong edge. she was at the top of the search engines for quite a while. as were gracie gold and kaetlyn osmond, interestingly enough. It's crazy, there's even articles on how julia allegedly said in her post lp interview that no one does a lutz properly anymore(did she really say that?? I've been hearing this a lot). I don't think even korea's internet will handle the chaos that will ensue if a clean yuna does not win.

vegarin said:

Oh lord. I can't even imagine how the Koreans would react if they actually shaft Yuna's score in obvious ways somehow and impede her chance of winning her second gold. Can you imagine what would happen if they both go clean and Julia wins by a tiny margin granted by higher PCS scores? What if they clearly and obviously shaft both Yuna and Mao? Both Yuna and Mao fans will unite (that will be a sight to see, actually) for a take down. That will break the Internet.

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It's already starting to happen. Look at all the Yuna and Mao fans already laying into Julia with all they've got.

It's already starting to happen. Look at all the Yuna and Mao fans already laying into Julia with all they've got.

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I'm a big Yuna fan myself, and I do see it happening -- it's like, I'd rather see Mao win, or Yuna win, rather than this baby who's suddenly getting massive GOEs! Losing to Mao/Yuna is acceptable, but only just! Thanks, Julia (Russia?), for uniting these fans. I never thought I'd see the day.

But honestly, I do share these feelings now, after perusing all the threads and reading interviews and studying the protocols. I'm miffed, and not just because I'd rather see Yuna or Mao to win. I still can't believe Julia won over Carolina who's gone almost perfectly. Telling me that Julia is better than Carolina when I can tell you that just ain't true. That, to me, is an issue.

CarolR said:

I have been lurking around since discovering this sight about a year ago. Been a long time skating fan and the parent of a former world level synchronized skater on Canada's premier team. (some of you may recognize the name Nexxice if you follow synchro at all). I definitely do not have the technical expertise that some wonderful members here have and share with us all. It is appreciated and I've learned so much. Whats not appreciated is this type of immature post full of unnecessary vitriol aimed mainly at anyone and anything Canadian. I am Canadian but appreciate skaters from any country. While D&R are not my favourite nobody has the right to make disparaging remarks about someone's physical build. They have obviously worked very hard as all skaters that make it to the Olympics. I'm all for constructive mature criticism but these constant ridiculous comments are simply outrageous which I suspect this member enjoys.

FYI, about your scrutinez joke
Plushenko SP he only got didnt got all 8 in component yet still would have him enough to beat Chan's mess of a SP
Carolina ha never beaten Julia in a SP this season, as clean skates continue the PCS will rise, that is a fact
and lol, D/R innovation ? it has nothing to do with PCS !!!

also to remind you, D/R have terrible skating skills, atrocious form, Duhamel is build like a truck driver thus her lines in the air are ugly
they deserve PCS in 6 and 7, thats a joke if you compare them to V/T

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I agree with you Carol. I haven't been at Golden Skate in a few years, prior to the Olympic run-up, and I'm saddened and surprised by the personal attacks on each other & the skaters. Not how it used to be.

And, yes, I know Nexxice & have some fb friends who skated on it

I don't really want to get involved in yet another ridiculous fight on this board - but wanted to just say I don't feel Osmond is Russia's main competition!!!

vegarin said:

But honestly, I do share these feelings now, after perusing all the threads and reading interviews and studying the protocols. I'm miffed, and not just because I'd rather see Yuna or Mao to win. I still can't believe Julia won over Carolina who's gone almost perfectly. Telling me that Julia is better than Carolina when I can tell you that just ain't true. That, to me, is an issue.

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Sk8n Mama said:

I haven't been at Golden Skate in a few years, prior to the Olympic run-up, and I'm saddened and surprised by the personal attacks on each other & the skaters.

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Nobody is attacking skaters. Only attacking the corrupt and obviously fixed judging. If Julia were receiving scores even in the ballpark of what she truly deserves (I'm sure nobody would quibble over a point or two) then I'd be one of the first ones to compliment her on what she does well. The problem is that her scores are not even subject to reality. They defy all explanation.

Then to uncover the cheating, all you have to do is look at the protocols, which many of us have been doing.

She does not deserve a single +2 on a jump. Never. Her 3Lz+3T received all +2 GOE from every judge. Some of the judges gave Yuna +2 at Worlds last year for same jump.
Look at those two jumps side-by-side and unless someone is blind there's not just a difference, but a large degree of difference.

+2 on 2A from four judges, that even Julia fans would admit this is one of her biggest weaknesses she needs to work on (it's a horrible jump).

+2 on many other jumps.

Russian judge gave her Level 4 +3 perfect score for her final spin that had a serious error (traveled to the moon).

Components scores way overscored. She's consistently had one score earlier in the year, and then in the last 2 months she's all of a sudden almost 10 points higher.
Her SS are weak. Her IN is weak. Transitions are good. Otherwise she's overscored by 1-2 points in every single category.