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Thread: Russian (Supposed) inflations and their Olympic consequences

  1. #106
    Custom Title yuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Pot, kettle?? You have been spamming the entire GS board with hundreds of posts, videos, etc. to drive YOUR agenda. You repeated this " Interesting Youtube video about Sotnikova's RIDICULOUS SCORE.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5cVW0h6U3D4" on EVERY thread there is out there about Sochi. You need to look into a mirror.

    However, it is worth repeating because you just pretend you don't get it.

    You proved my point - BOTH PCS of Chan-Hanyu and Kim-Sotnikova were MADE to be extremely close, so the gap is 3 and 0.9, Hanyu +15, Sotnikova +7, to the point where the veterans could be overcome by the younger skaters TES and more difficult programs!
    Grab some warm tea, chill out and learn to read. I am not the same person as the poster yuki90, my name on this board is simply yuki. It undermines your argument if you don't even bother with such "small" details, you know .

    Also, 0.9 and 0.09 is not the same. A gap of only 0.09 points signifies practically identical PCS scores. No matter how much you fell the judges inflated Yuzuru's PCS, they didn't go so far as to give him practically the same marks as Patrick, but for Adelina vs. Yuna they did.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuki View Post
    1. Yuzuru skated pretty badly in the TEB FS, with errors on both quads, as opposed to the GPF. Adelina skated well at both Europeans and Olympics

    2. You seem to be forgetting that in the Men's competition PCS are multiplied by a factor of 2, while in ladies they are multiplied by 1.6, so it doesn't make sense to compare increases directly like you are doing here.

    3. Please stop spamming every thread with the same message. I swear I saw this in at least 6-7 different threads today.

    ETA: At the GPF, the gap in PCS between Patrick and Yuzuru was 3 points (with both of them relatively clean). In Sochi, the PCS gap between Yuna and Adelina was 0.09 points.
    Yuzuru's PCS becoming high still not like Adelina's but still ridiculous. It's not like Yuzuru does foot works like Patrick whose the most talented skater ever. Figure skating is a joke now. It's not a sport anymore.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuki View Post
    Grab some warm tea, chill out and learn to read. I am not the same person as the poster yuki90, my name on this board is simply yuki. It undermines your argument if you don't even bother with such "small" details, you know .

    Also, 0.9 and 0.09 is not the same. A gap of only 0.09 points signifies practically identical PCS scores. No matter how much you fell the judges inflated Yuzuru's PCS, they didn't go so far as to give him practically the same marks as Patrick, but for Adelina vs. Yuna they did.
    Then shouldn't you apply the "stop spamming" demand to all those Yuna ubers who are spamming this thread too? Double standards much?

    Whether it is 3, 0.9 or 0.09, the POINT is that the veterans were all placed on notice this quad leading to the Olympics NOT to count on their much higher PCS to be assured a win, and that the younger skaters CAN beat them with a TES packed program of higher difficulty.

    It started with Chan vs Hanyu, where Hanyu's PCS was boosted to the point (+14 from TEb to the GPF) where Chan had no cushion for errors against Hanyu.

    After Chan's GPF loss, I reckoned that if the Russians sent Kovtun, it would be a battle of TES. If Plushenko were sent, then it would be a PCS battle. It turned out neither competed in the individual, the default was thus a TES battle, as in GPF. Same as for Ladies, with only younger Russian skaters fielded. Kim had no PCS cushion.

    Is this fair? I believe so. Otherwise, no matter how hard the up and coming skaters try, they won't be able to bridge the 20+ PCS points with any kind of human-skateable programs.

    Since GPF, I have accepted this new reality of rapid PCS boosting, so Sotnikova's comparatively small spike of +7 wasn't earth-shattering for me, or appeared to be some nefarious cheating and conspiracy. Like Patrick Chan, Kim, Caro, Mao have lost the comfortable PCS cushion and needed to bring their A game for the battle for OGM.

  4. #109
    Love popcorn, hate horrendous costumes. Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Then shouldn't you apply the "stop spamming" demand to all those Yuna ubers who are spamming this thread too? Double standards much?

    Whether it is 3, 0.9 or 0.09, the POINT is that the veterans were all placed on notice this quad leading to the Olympics NOT to count on their much higher PCS to be assured a win, and that the younger skaters CAN beat them with a TES packed program of higher difficulty.

    It started with Chan vs Hanyu, where Hanyu's PCS was boosted to the point (+14 from TEb to the GPF) where Chan had no cushion for errors against Hanyu.

    After Chan's GPF loss, I reckoned that if the Russians sent Kovtun, it would be a battle of TES. If Plushenko were sent, then it would be a PCS battle. It turned out neither competed in the individual, the default was thus a TES battle, as in GPF. Same as for Ladies, with only younger Russian skaters fielded. Kim had no PCS cushion.

    Is this fair? I believe so. Otherwise, no matter how hard the up and coming skaters try, they won't be able to bridge the 20+ PCS points with any kind of human-skateable programs.

    Since GPF, I have accepted this new reality of rapid PCS boosting, so Sotnikova's comparatively small spike of +7 wasn't earth-shattering for me, or appeared to be some nefarious cheating and conspiracy. Like Patrick Chan, Kim, Caro, Mao have lost the comfortable PCS cushion and needed to bring their A game for the battle for OGM.
    I also have the same idea, when I told my friend on facebook about, they (Kim's fans) grew outrageous and say something like "that is cheating, unfair..." while I think otherwise. Yes, it's unfair but for the young skaters. I'm glad they removed the PCS advantage over the veterans this time (but then again, they only remove it for certain young skaters, not for all of them).
    I hate the PCS cushion that the veterans skaters have, of course they have more experience, more time on the ice, but that does not mean they don't have their day off. I like Kim in Vancouver 2010. But her performances in Sochi were a bit lifeless (beautiful but well, boring). Lots of my friends said that, even my mum. We don't follow figure skating every years, we don't even have any particular favourite (except for the retired) it's just the Olympic, so you may call us amateurs, but well, that's what we fell so it's couldn't be help.
    Then again, I hope they stop boosting the PCS scores, the unbelievable scores are getting annoying, really.

  5. #110
    Custom Title yuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Then shouldn't you apply the "stop spamming" demand to all those Yuna ubers who are spamming this thread too? Double standards much?
    No, I shouldn't. In general, I don't owe you anything and I don't have any obligation towards you. I wasn't rude to you, so I would very much appreciate if you returned the courtesy.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Whether it is 3, 0.9 or 0.09, the POINT is that the veterans were all placed on notice this quad leading to the Olympics NOT to count on their much higher PCS to be assured a win, and that the younger skaters CAN beat them with a TES packed program of higher difficulty.
    Not the younger skaters in general, but some younger skaters (and in the case of the Ladies event, the skaters who also, coincidentally or not, were skating for the host country). Do you honestly not see how that might look suspicious?

    Btw, skaters like Kim and Kostner didn't conjure high PCS out of thin air, they worked throughout their career to improve in those areas that PCS reward (skating skills, flow, musical interpretation etc). What is the incentive for these young skaters to do the same if they are basically told they already are at that level? Why would they even bother?

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    I also have the same idea, when I told my friend on facebook about, they (Kim's fans) grew outrageous and say something like "that is cheating, unfair..." while I think otherwise. Yes, it's unfair but for the young skaters. I'm glad they removed the PCS advantage over the veterans this time (but then again, they only remove it for certain young skaters, not for all of them).
    I hate the PCS cushion that the veterans skaters have, of course they have more experience, more time on the ice, but that does not mean they don't have their day off. I like Kim in Vancouver 2010. But her performances in Sochi were a bit lifeless (beautiful but well, boring). Lots of my friends said that, even my mum. We don't follow figure skating every years, we don't even have any particular favourite (except for the retired) it's just the Olympic, so you may call us amateurs, but well, that's what we fell so it's couldn't be help.
    Then again, I hope they stop boosting the PCS scores, the unbelievable scores are getting annoying, really.
    Agreed that I finally felt I understood the recent PCS inflation, and accepted it. Yes, it doesn't seem fair for the younger ones to "catch up" with the veterans, but how else will they ever stand a chance? If they are convinced that they will get to skate on a more level playing rink, it is more likely that they will throw in their best performance and up the ante. Otherwise, it's a vicious cycle. I thought KIm wasn't as good as Vancouver 2010, but she's still excellent. It's the program that wasn't as impressive, and it didn't allow her to bring her A game, and Sot did.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuki View Post
    No, I shouldn't. In general, I don't owe you anything and I don't have any obligation towards you. I wasn't rude to you, so I would very much appreciate if you returned the courtesy.


    Not the younger skaters in general, but some younger skaters (and in the case of the Ladies event, the skaters who also, coincidentally or not, were skating for the host country). Do you honestly not see how that might look suspicious?

    Btw, skaters like Kim and Kostner didn't conjure high PCS out of thin air, they worked throughout their career to improve in those areas that PCS reward (skating skills, flow, musical interpretation etc). What is the incentive for these young skaters to do the same if they are basically told they already are at that level? Why would they even bother?
    You were rude to me, you told me to "stop spamming", ie. you accused me of misbehavior since spamming is an inconsiderate act.

    Show proof that I pasted the same post over and over? Otherwise, apologies please.

    I contend that I have a right and have been answering Yuna ubers' rampant accusations about Sotnikova's questionable PCS increase, and using that as evidence of corruption/cheating. The PCS questions have been repeated over and over, no one seems to have provided an answer.

    I then pointed out that you didn't request the other yuki or the legions of Yuna ubers to do the same, despite them spamming over and over the SAME posts in every thread. That seems to me double standards.

    What you said of Kim, Caro, Mao's PCS also applies to Chan's PCS, he earned them too, so are you saying that Hanyu's +14 (20+ over the quad) PCS boost was also questionable?

    Does experience automatically mean that the older skaters deserve this 20+ points cushion? When can we get the veterans and new skaters compete on a level playing field? Doesn't it mean a rigged competition if your competitor is automatically ahead of you by 10 to 20 points, which means you have to perform 3-4 extra elements more than them to fairly compete? Sotnikova, like Hanyu, has been skating since little, winning her first Nationals at 12. So how many years does it take for her to finally "catch up" with the veterans to enable her to have a shot at beating them?

    Finally, you don't need to reply, I will likely be too busy to return and check on these threads, but the serious nature of all these allegations of cheating and the millions signing a petition to overturn an Olympic outcome does behoove us to have a fair and balanced debate. You can't just shut up those who disagree while allowing the other side to flood the forum with threads and posts, giving the impression that the most figure skating fans agree with the view that Kim was robbed.

  8. #113
    Custom Title yuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Does experience automatically mean that the older skaters deserve this 20+ points cushion? When can we get the veterans and new skaters compete on a level playing field? Doesn't it mean a rigged competition if your competitor is automatically ahead of you by 10 to 20 points, which means you have to perform 3-4 extra elements more than them to fairly compete? Sotnikova, like Hanyu, has been skating since little, winning her first Nationals at 12. So how many years does it take for her to finally "catch up" with the veterans to enable her to have a shot at beating them?
    This is not about experience, or Jenna McCorkell would have Yuna's PCS. Yuna, Carolina and the like are simply better skaters, I don't know why that's so hard to understand. Adelina (and any other young skater, for that matter) can compete with them by actually improving in PCS instead of having free points handed to them like candy on Halloween. Your insistence that young skaters should automatically be given the same PCS as the veterans is insulting to the work those veterans put into improving their skills.

    By the way, Adelina's PCS in the Euros LP (which were already inflated enough, as it were) would have still given her the win over Yuna and overall. It would have also suggested that the LP was close between them (which it was) instead of having Adelina win the LP by a landslide. Even if Yuna had done a 3Lo (thus 7 triples in total), this still wouldn't have given her the win over Adelina, since they were judged to be essentially the same in PCS. Does that seem fair to you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuki View Post
    This is not about experience, or Jenna McCorkell would have Yuna's PCS. Yuna, Carolina and the like are simply better skaters, I don't know why that's so hard to understand. Adelina (and any other young skater, for that matter) can compete with them by actually improving in PCS instead of having free points handed to them like candy on Halloween. Your insistence that young skaters should automatically be given the same PCS as the veterans is insulting to the work those veterans put into improving their skills.

    By the way, Adelina's PCS in the Euros LP (which were already inflated enough, as it were) would have still given her the win over Yuna and overall. It would have also suggested that the LP was close between them (which it was) instead of having Adelina win the LP by a landslide. Even if Yuna had done a 3Lo (thus 7 triples in total), this still wouldn't have given her the win over Adelina, since they were judged to be essentially the same in PCS. Does that seem fair to you?
    Polina Edmunds the other fifteen year old received much lower PCS even though she is much more refined in her jumps and musical expression than Julia. Polina has a decent double axel unlike Julia that obviously doesn't matter since half the judges were from Eastern Europe.

  10. #115
    Tripping on the Podium slutskayafann's Avatar
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    If you don't like Russian it is wise not to follow Figure skating. If you don't like Canada don't follow Hockey. If you don't like US don't follow swimming.

  11. #116
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Awful advice.

  12. #117
    Love popcorn, hate horrendous costumes. Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slutskayafann View Post
    If you don't like Russian it is wise not to follow Figure skating. If you don't like Canada don't follow Hockey. If you don't like US don't follow swimming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yuki View Post
    This is not about experience, or Jenna McCorkell would have Yuna's PCS. Yuna, Carolina and the like are simply better skaters, I don't know why that's so hard to understand. Adelina (and any other young skater, for that matter) can compete with them by actually improving in PCS instead of having free points handed to them like candy on Halloween. Your insistence that young skaters should automatically be given the same PCS as the veterans is insulting to the work those veterans put into improving their skills.

    By the way, Adelina's PCS in the Euros LP (which were already inflated enough, as it were) would have still given her the win over Yuna and overall. It would have also suggested that the LP was close between them (which it was) instead of having Adelina win the LP by a landslide. Even if Yuna had done a 3Lo (thus 7 triples in total), this still wouldn't have given her the win over Adelina, since they were judged to be essentially the same in PCS. Does that seem fair to you?
    It's not experience alone. It's about having some room to apply a more subjective judgment since TES is very much Math - a newbie who is a very good jumper, with good SS can score very highly in TES, but it is up to the judges to decide via PCS if this newbie has the potential to be placed on a "champion" trajectory. If they want to expedite the rise of younger skaters like Hanyu, Sotnikova, Julia, Gracie, they will award them the PCS quite rapidly, within 12-24 months on the seniors circuit, so they can get to a more even playing rink with the reigning champions, Chan, Mao, Kim, etc. These reigning champions themselves have benefited from the same inflated PCS, Chan being the most visible example, but Mao too. Of course most Feds use the opportunities of international ISU events to award the PCS to help their own athletes get on the podium. There's a limit to this boost though, they will likely agree on which particular skaters have the qualities to get to the very top, so skaters like say, China's Zhang Kexin, who is a very good jumper, spinner, excellent SS, etc. will score well in TES but they will find ways to depress her GOE and PCS because Zhang will unlikely become a star, even though she is a strong skater. In contrast, Gold was awarded +6 between her Team LP and Individual LP to rapidly send her to the top 6 placement, even when she fell.

    They will do this because she is marketable, has great audience appeal, little girls are already worshiping her, she has been identified as an asset to FS, and like Chan, even if she were to fall all over the place, will continue to enjoy high PCS.

    It looks like foul, even much more than Adelina's +7 PCS boost, but you can tell Gold has been placed on the fast track to FS stardom, Hollywood looks and all.

    So we have to live with this rocketing PCS for a select few, "star quality" skaters, is it fair? No. Is it necessary? Most likely, yes.

  14. #119
    Custom Title yuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    It's not experience alone. It's about having some room to apply a more subjective judgment since TES is very much Math - a newbie who is a very good jumper, with good SS can score very highly in TES, but it is up to the judges to decide via PCS if this newbie has the potential to be placed on a "champion" trajectory. If they want to expedite the rise of younger skaters like Hanyu, Sotnikova, Julia, Gracie, they will award them the PCS quite rapidly, within 12-24 months on the seniors circuit, so they can get to a more even playing rink with the reigning champions,
    But his is not what happened here. Leveling the playing field between Yuna and Adelina would have meant inflating Adelina's PCS enough so that when they are both clean they have the potential to score similarly (Adelina's TES being offset by Yuna's PCS). What actually happened was that they gave Adelina more or less the same PCS as Yuna, which, combined with Adelina's higher BV, meant that Yuna could not beat her no matter what she did. In fact, Yuna would not have won even if she did 7 triples instead of 6. This is not leveling the field, this is giving an unfair advantage to Adelina - unfair since her skating doesn't (yet) warrant the kind of PCS that she received here. Yuna should have easily trumped her in every category of PCS (apart from TR, maybe), yet she didn't.

    As a sidenote, Yuna's PCS here was also slight inflated, but this was necessary since they had already dug themselves into a hole with Adelina's PCS and couldn't possibly give Yuna lower marks - imagine what the backlash had been then.

    Btw, this is not only about Yuna vs. Adelina. The scoring in the whole Ladies competition has been a mess, with inconsistent technical calls, dubious PCS (Yulia scoring higher than Mao is one glaring example), levels and GOE all over the place etc. I really hope they get rid of anonymous judging as soon as possible, so that if something like this happens again there is at least some level of accountability (the skaters themselves have no fault in this, they just did their job to the best of their abilities).

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuki View Post
    But his is not what happened here. Leveling the playing field between Yuna and Adelina would have meant inflating Adelina's PCS enough so that when they are both clean they have the potential to score similarly (Adelina's TES being offset by Yuna's PCS). What actually happened was that they gave Adelina more or less the same PCS as Yuna, which, combined with Adelina's higher BV, meant that Yuna could not beat her no matter what she did. In fact, Yuna would not have won even if she did 7 triples instead of 6. This is not leveling the field, this is giving an unfair advantage to Adelina - unfair since her skating doesn't (yet) warrant the kind of PCS that she received here. Yuna should have easily trumped her in every category of PCS (apart from TR, maybe), yet she didn't.

    As a sidenote, Yuna's PCS here was also slight inflated, but this was necessary since they had already dug themselves into a hole with Adelina's PCS and couldn't possibly give Yuna lower marks - imagine what the backlash had been then.

    Btw, this is not only about Yuna vs. Adelina. The scoring in the whole Ladies competition has been a mess, with inconsistent technical calls, dubious PCS (Yulia scoring higher than Mao is one glaring example), levels and GOE all over the place etc. I really hope they get rid of anonymous judging as soon as possible, so that if something like this happens again there is at least some level of accountability (the skaters themselves have no fault in this, they just did their job to the best of their abilities).
    Did you not notice the same at GPF? Hanyu was given a sudden boost in PCS, double Sotnikova's, so his PCS was leveled with Chan. Hanyu used TES to beat Chan, much like how it happened here. Of course it is fair, whoever skated the more challenging program, more difficult elements, with better components, wins. For the first time, Hanyu competed without a handicap, a handicap that YUna's fans insist Sotnikova should bear. Without this PCS leveling, Chan would have a cushion of at least 2-3 botched elements over Hanyu, i.e. falling twice and still win, which isn't fair to Hanyu. It is the same at work here, Sotnikova is given a chance because it is not humanly possible to overcome a 20 point gap or add 2-3 more big elements to a packed and jumps-laden program. Kim's program wasn't a cakewalk, Sotnikova's best BV is only 4-5 points over Kim. So what does a challenger have to do to have a shot at beating these PCS-gifted and laden champions? Hanyu has to do 6 quads to bridge a 20 points PCS gap? Sotnikova has to do 3 trple axels and 6 triple combos? Therefore the top 3 ladies had PCS very close to each other, and it is up to the TES battle to secure the win. It is fair because a technically more challenging program takes greater skating skills, strength, agility, etc., to skate. Citius, Altius, Fortius, as the motto goes. Hanyu and Sotnikova fell so many times through their senior circuit before they finally manage to skate their programs clean, to skate them well. They paid their dues to skate harder, faster, better. Who else today can skate at their level of BV? So yes, their higher PCS is earned too.

    As for Julia vs Mao, didn't Mao win GPF, even with a fall in the LP, due to higher PCS, even though Julia skated better, with higher TES? Mao's PCS advantage over Julia's was +14, with that kind of cushion, Mao could fall 3 more times and the GPF win is still guaranteed. So for Hanyu at GPF, and at this Olympics for Adelina and Julia, it would be humanly impossible for them to beat Chan, Mao or Yuna if their PCS gap remains unchanged.

    It is also untrue to say that with lower BV, Yuna cannot beat Sotnikova. Just look at the Men's Olympics LP. After Hanyu botched his skate, everyone thought that Chan would win OGM. If Chan had skated a clean LP, even with a lower BV, he would have, well, the rest is history.

    Higher PCS is a guarantee, it's points already in the bag. Higher TES BV still NEEDS to be racked up in the performance, to be earned through punishing training, through flawless delivery when it counts. Higher BV means greater chance of botching the skate, of falling, of making errors, so Sotnikova was taking a bigger risk than Yuna. If she wasn't good, she would have fallen and lost. Yuna could of course have raised her own BV to include say, a 3loop. That would be a greater insurance of her second OGM. She knew Adelina's layout, she could have up her game, as GPF showed that 20 points PCS cushion for reigning champions like Chan could vanish in an instance when a younger challenger like Hanyu stepped up.

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