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Thread: Russian (Supposed) inflations and their Olympic consequences

  1. #121
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    At least Russian skaters all skated well, compare to Vancouver were north Americans got huge support from judges in Mens and Ice dance

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    At least Russian skaters all skated well, compare to Vancouver were north Americans got huge support from judges in Mens and Ice dance
    As opposed to using bungee cords in the free dance (and not as a fashion accessory)? And skating clean without relying on a PCS boost (something that people tend to forget about Lysacek vs Plushenko)?

    Well uh ok then.

  3. #123
    Custom Title yuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Hanyu was given a sudden boost in PCS, double Sotnikova's, so his PCS was leveled with Chan.
    Again, this is not accurate since Men's PCS are factored by 2 and Ladies' by 1.6. Also, you're comparing bad (TEB) vs. very good (GPF) competitions for Yuzuru and good (Europeans) vs. very good (Olympics) competitions for Adelina. For a more accurate comparison, you could take Adelina's Cup of China FS.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    It is fair because a technically more challenging program takes greater skating skills, strength, agility, etc., to skate.
    Skating skills have nothing whatsoever to do with jumps difficulty. please refer to: http://www.usfsa.org/content/JS08A-P...compexplan.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Who else today can skate at their level of BV? So yes, their higher PCS is earned too.
    Base value has nothing to do with PCS.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    As for Julia vs Mao, didn't Mao win GPF, even with a fall in the LP, due to higher PCS, even though Julia skated better, with higher TES? Mao's PCS advantage over Julia's was +14, with that kind of cushion, Mao could fall 3 more times and the GPF win is still guaranteed. So for Hanyu at GPF, and at this Olympics for Adelina and Julia, it would be humanly impossible for them to beat Chan, Mao or Yuna if their PCS gap remains unchanged.
    Across both programs, Mao's TES was 101.32 and Yulia's 101.77, so Yulia was barely ahead in TES. Why should she have beaten Mao when she's also clearly behind in PCS?

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    It is also untrue to say that with lower BV, Yuna cannot beat Sotnikova. Just look at the Men's Olympics LP. After Hanyu botched his skate, everyone thought that Chan would win OGM. If Chan had skated a clean LP, even with a lower BV, he would have, well, the rest is history.
    I didn't say that. What I said was that as long as Adelina went clean (or almost clean, as it were), Yuna could't have beat her no matter how well she skated. This shouldn't have happened, since Yuna's advantage in PCS should have compensated for Adelina's advantage in TES. The fact that this was in reality a close competition was not reflected in the scores that had Adelina winning the FS by more than 5 points.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Higher PCS is a guarantee, it's points already in the bag. Higher TES BV still NEEDS to be racked up in the performance, to be earned through punishing training, through flawless delivery when it counts.
    You seem to think that PCS is some throwaway mark that is gifted to veteran skaters on the basis of longevity and reputation when in reality those of them that are getting high PCS had to work throughout their careers to improve their overall quality of skating in order to receive them. Honing the skills required to get good PCS takes just as much effort and training as improving in jumps and spins, or else they'd all have the skating skills of a Carolina Kostner or a Patrick Chan, for example. This is why I find your reasoning that younger skaters should automatically be given those types of marks just to they can be competitive a bit weird. If they are at a disadvantage in PCS, they are free to maximize their TES and/or actually improve their skating to the point where they earn higher marks.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Yuna could of course have raised her own BV to include say, a 3loop. That would be a greater insurance of her second OGM. She knew Adelina's layout, she could have up her game, as GPF showed that 20 points PCS cushion for reigning champions like Chan could vanish in an instance when a younger challenger like Hanyu stepped up.
    Yuna doesn't do a 3Loop because of injury. it wouldn't have mattered anyway, since she wouldn't have beaten Adelina here even with a 3Loop.

  4. #124
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    What did the bbc commentators say about Sotnikova's win ? I really want to know their opinion because they are always so objectiv

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnastasiaO View Post
    What did the bbc commentators say about Sotnikova's win ? I really want to know their opinion because they are always so objectiv
    Only Cousins made comments. He thought that before the marks came up Kim would win based on her reputation and longevity in business. But he said that it was close competition and could have gone either way. But really nobody cared enough about it.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuki View Post
    Again, this is not accurate since Men's PCS are factored by 2 and Ladies' by 1.6. Also, you're comparing bad (TEB) vs. very good (GPF) competitions for Yuzuru and good (Europeans) vs. very good (Olympics) competitions for Adelina. For a more accurate comparison, you could take Adelina's Cup of China FS.
    This is the last time for any interaction with you. First of all, you made a false accusation that I was spamming. Even if you refuse to acknowledge the numbers doesn't mean they are not there for all to see, you insist that one is legitimate but the other isn't based on nothing but your own bias and prejudice. There's no point in furthering the conversation with such lack of respect for honesty, facts and consistency. You keep making allegations without putting out your PROOF.


    Going further back till you get a Sotnikova PCS inflation that satisfies your personal bias, ie., shifting your goal posts, then one competition before TEB (Nov 15) at SC (Oct 24), Hanyu's LP PCS was even lower, so the jump in PCS that Hanyu benefited from was also greater, and so on.

    Let's compare LP PCS

    Adelina went from 60(CoC)-69(Euro)-74(Sochi), Hanyu from 76(SC)-81(TEB)-92(GPF)

    TES, Adelina went from 50 (CoC) to 75 (highest), +25, Hanyu from 87 (SC) to 102 (highest) +15

    BOTH benefited from rising PCS, BUT

    Adelina's TES marks also markedly improved, from 50 at Cup of China to 62 at Euro 2014 to 75 at Sochi, a +25 pt TES increase, so her skating improved rapidly overall.

    Hanyu's TES was 87 (SC) to 102 (GPF) to 89 at Sochi, so in fact his technical elements only improved by +15 compared to Adelina's +25!!

    Hanyu's PCS rose much faster than his TES improvement, whereas Adelina's PCS rose much slower than her TES improvement!

    So whose PCS rose faster?

    Skating skills have nothing whatsoever to do with jumps difficulty. please refer to: http://www.usfsa.org/content/JS08A-P...compexplan.pdf
    Oh yeah, what are those difficult entrances and exits, flow, edges, speed, that add points to the Jumps? Dance moves?

    Base value has nothing to do with PCS.
    This is your strawman, I didn't say they did, yet it was you who said Hanyu skated badly at TEB so his PCS was lower, etc..



    Across both programs, Mao's TES was 101.32 and Yulia's 101.77, so Yulia was barely ahead in TES. Why should she have beaten Mao when she's also clearly behind in PCS?
    Again, what exactly is your point? Mao messed up her SP, to 16th place! If she hadn't, then with her LP, she would have beaten Yulia and possibly even Yuna to be OGM.



    I didn't say that. What I said was that as long as Adelina went clean (or almost clean, as it were), Yuna could't have beat her no matter how well she skated. This shouldn't have happened, since Yuna's advantage in PCS should have compensated for Adelina's advantage in TES. The fact that this was in reality a close competition was not reflected in the scores that had Adelina winning the FS by more than 5 points.

    You don't make sense at all...a skater with higher BV will always beat one with lower BV?

    And right there at the very same Olympics, Hanyu with his insanely difficult LP and high BV, much higher than Chan's, would have lost if Chan had not skated even worse. There you go, higher BV doesn't mean you win lower BV....urgh...isn't this rudimentary knowledge??!! Hanyu, by falling and making many mistakes, because you know, his program was DIFFICULT, handed Chan the gold and Chan LOST it because he couldn't skate his easier program clean. If he had, then Gold is HIS.

    A more difficult program is, you know, more difficult to skate well. So Hanyu and Sot took much higher risks than Kim or Chan, they are more likely to fall, to mess up their skate. A higher BV isn't the same as a higher PCS, because they still HAVE to go and earn those TES marks, undergo punishing body-breaking training to execute those quad and triple combos, etc. unlike PCS which are already *in the bag* on the day of competition, no efforts needed. If they have to close 20+ PCS gap, it's not even at all humanly possible for them to EVER get gold, no matter how much higher they try to push their BV, how many more quads or triple combos do you want to make them jump.??

    Like Fernandez said when asked about his strategy for closing the gap with Chan, "Do 10 quads?"

    It is only with a level PCS playing field that competitions are FAIR, i.e. a better skater wins based on a better skate.


    You seem to think that PCS is some throwaway mark that is gifted to veteran skaters on the basis of longevity and reputation when in reality those of them that are getting high PCS had to work throughout their careers to improve their overall quality of skating in order to receive them. Honing the skills required to get good PCS takes just as much effort and training as improving in jumps and spins, or else they'd all have the skating skills of a Carolina Kostner or a Patrick Chan, for example. This is why I find your reasoning that younger skaters should automatically be given those types of marks just to they can be competitive a bit weird. If they are at a disadvantage in PCS, they are free to maximize their TES and/or actually improve their skating to the point where they earn higher marks.
    Who says these PCS were "automatically gifted"? Are you saying that Hanyu and Sotnikova didn't work their body parts off to get to their current PCS? Why were they falling all over their programs before they finally got them right? They're skating more difficult contents to try to beat the reigning champions. If they fall, mess up, etc. they still lose.

    I was at first shocked at the inflation of PCS Hanyu received at GPF, there were threads about it, but I concluded then that it will be battle of TES at Olympics. There was a decision beginning with GPF to level the PCS playing field for the new rank of young skaters, and I agreed with the decision. Imagine a 100 m race where Usain Bolt is given a 5m advantage at the next Olympics...because well, he's a veteran and he earned it! He trained for many more years than the new guys! Only in figure skating....


    Yuna doesn't do a 3Loop because of injury. it wouldn't have mattered anyway, since she wouldn't have beaten Adelina here even with a 3Loop.
    If she executed the 3loop well, she would have earned at least 5+ more points, enough for gold, as this is almost exactly the marks by which she lost to Adelina.

    It is enough, I have made my point, there's no need to continue this further and bore others.

  7. #127
    Custom Title yuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    This is the last time for any interaction with you. First of all, you made a false accusation that I was spamming.
    Let it go already. I wasn't accusing you of literally being a spammer, what I was referring to is that you posted variations of the same message on several threads (which you did). It's accepted usage of the term.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Oh yeah, what are those difficult entrances and exits, flow, edges, speed, that add points to the Jumps? Dance moves?
    Those should be rewarded in the Transitions component of PCS (& difficult entrances and exits and good speed can also be rewarded in jump GOE).

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    This is your strawman, I didn't say they did, yet it was you who said Hanyu skated badly at TEB so his PCS was lower, etc..
    You were the one that were implying that because they had high base values they earned high PCS (exact quote: "Who else today can skate at their level of BV? So yes, their higher PCS is earned too.").

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Again, what exactly is your point? Mao messed up her SP, to 16th place! If she hadn't, then with her LP, she would have beaten Yulia and possibly even Yuna to be OGM.
    We were talking about GPF, not the Olympics. If we were discussing the Olympics, this would directly contradict your argument, since in the Olympics LP Mao beat Yulia by 6.75 points in TES, but Yulia actually got higher PCS (!!!). So much for the poor young skaters being disadvantaged against the veterans.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    It is enough, I have made my point, there's no need to continue this further and bore others.
    I agree. You obviously have little regard for actually trying to understand what I wrote or, for that matter, presenting a proper argument instead of repeating the same things over and over again (with little connection to what I was saying). I suggest you 1) take this less seriously and 2) take the time to actually read and understand what people are replying to you instead of going for knee-jerk reactions. It's just figure skating, seriously.
    By the way, still haven't heard your apology for lashing out at me when mistaking me for another poster, so I'd say we're pretty even .

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnastasiaO View Post
    What did the bbc commentators say about Sotnikova's win ? I really want to know their opinion because they are always so objectiv
    I remember the guy repeatedly saying Kim deserved gold after her FS, and then there was some silence after her score was revealed.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilahozi View Post
    I remember the guy repeatedly saying Kim deserved gold after her FS, and then there was some silence after her score was revealed.
    Yeah, and I think the woman said, "Surely this HAS to be the gold!"

  10. #130
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    I don't know why qwerty keeps bringing up Hanyu. What does that have to do with this conversation? Is his argument that skaters are entitled to inflated PCS scores, or that everyone gets overmarked on PCS in general?

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    This is the last time for any interaction with you. First of all, you made a false accusation that I was spamming. Even if you refuse to acknowledge the numbers doesn't mean they are not there for all to see, you insist that one is legitimate but the other isn't based on nothing but your own bias and prejudice. There's no point in furthering the conversation with such lack of respect for honesty, facts and consistency. You keep making allegations without putting out your PROOF.


    Going further back till you get a Sotnikova PCS inflation that satisfies your personal bias, ie., shifting your goal posts, then one competition before TEB (Nov 15) at SC (Oct 24), Hanyu's LP PCS was even lower, so the jump in PCS that Hanyu benefited from was also greater, and so on.

    Let's compare LP PCS

    Adelina went from 60(CoC)-69(Euro)-74(Sochi), Hanyu from 76(SC)-81(TEB)-92(GPF)

    TES, Adelina went from 50 (CoC) to 75 (highest), +25, Hanyu from 87 (SC) to 102 (highest) +15

    BOTH benefited from rising PCS, BUT

    Adelina's TES marks also markedly improved, from 50 at Cup of China to 62 at Euro 2014 to 75 at Sochi, a +25 pt TES increase, so her skating improved rapidly overall.

    Hanyu's TES was 87 (SC) to 102 (GPF) to 89 at Sochi, so in fact his technical elements only improved by +15 compared to Adelina's +25!!

    Hanyu's PCS rose much faster than his TES improvement, whereas Adelina's PCS rose much slower than her TES improvement!

    So whose PCS rose faster?



    Oh yeah, what are those difficult entrances and exits, flow, edges, speed, that add points to the Jumps? Dance moves?



    This is your strawman, I didn't say they did, yet it was you who said Hanyu skated badly at TEB so his PCS was lower, etc..





    Again, what exactly is your point? Mao messed up her SP, to 16th place! If she hadn't, then with her LP, she would have beaten Yulia and possibly even Yuna to be OGM.






    You don't make sense at all...a skater with higher BV will always beat one with lower BV?

    And right there at the very same Olympics, Hanyu with his insanely difficult LP and high BV, much higher than Chan's, would have lost if Chan had not skated even worse. There you go, higher BV doesn't mean you win lower BV....urgh...isn't this rudimentary knowledge??!! Hanyu, by falling and making many mistakes, because you know, his program was DIFFICULT, handed Chan the gold and Chan LOST it because he couldn't skate his easier program clean. If he had, then Gold is HIS.

    A more difficult program is, you know, more difficult to skate well. So Hanyu and Sot took much higher risks than Kim or Chan, they are more likely to fall, to mess up their skate. A higher BV isn't the same as a higher PCS, because they still HAVE to go and earn those TES marks, undergo punishing body-breaking training to execute those quad and triple combos, etc. unlike PCS which are already *in the bag* on the day of competition, no efforts needed. If they have to close 20+ PCS gap, it's not even at all humanly possible for them to EVER get gold, no matter how much higher they try to push their BV, how many more quads or triple combos do you want to make them jump.??

    Like Fernandez said when asked about his strategy for closing the gap with Chan, "Do 10 quads?"

    It is only with a level PCS playing field that competitions are FAIR, i.e. a better skater wins based on a better skate.




    Who says these PCS were "automatically gifted"? Are you saying that Hanyu and Sotnikova didn't work their body parts off to get to their current PCS? Why were they falling all over their programs before they finally got them right? They're skating more difficult contents to try to beat the reigning champions. If they fall, mess up, etc. they still lose.

    I was at first shocked at the inflation of PCS Hanyu received at GPF, there were threads about it, but I concluded then that it will be battle of TES at Olympics. There was a decision beginning with GPF to level the PCS playing field for the new rank of young skaters, and I agreed with the decision. Imagine a 100 m race where Usain Bolt is given a 5m advantage at the next Olympics...because well, he's a veteran and he earned it! He trained for many more years than the new guys! Only in figure skating....



    If she executed the 3loop well, she would have earned at least 5+ more points, enough for gold, as this is almost exactly the marks by which she lost to Adelina.

    It is enough, I have made my point, there's no need to continue this further and bore others.
    As long as choreography is a component score then programs are kind of a dance. Also, skating is more than just a physical endeavor. it is obvious that Yuna and Carolina put some thought into their skating and worked their choreography. If you can tell me what Adelina was doing to honor and her choreography (?) and interpret her music, then please tell me. PCS don't need to be leveled. Jumping beans like Adelina just need to spend a little more time working on these elements and actually earn their PCS marks.

    It was almost galling to see her pretend to be an artist at the Gala (two yellow flags?). it was so transparent. It was like "See, I'm as good an artist as Yuna and Carolina." Right... we believe you Adelina, lol.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    I know i'm a big fan of a bunch of Russian skaters, But i do want to get a focused debate going on this, Before the heavy competition starts:

    -Did the Russian skaters benefit a bit too much in PCS?
    -Did the crowd influence the judges a bit too much?
    -Did the judges penalize a little less for Russian skaters who made borderline mistakes and so so executions ?
    -Have non Russian skaters who are threatening Russian ones been over scrutinized ?


    Possible examples so far:
    -P\B of France having the biggest technical base mark of the night, But losing to B\S of Russia on PCS and GOE, a placing which cost France it's 5th place in the finals.
    -Plushenko having a good clean skate, with high 8's for PCS placing him over Chan of Canada with a flawed skate, Which wouldn't of happened with a couple less points for said PCS.
    -Osmond of Canada (Russia's main rival) going clean but finishing 5th with low 7's for PCS.
    -D\R of Canada getting high 7's for PCS for a very risky and inventive SP, while Russian mega favorites V\T getting high 9's.
    -Lipnitskaya of Russia getting + 1.40 for her Lutz combo, Which in every other competition this year got -1's because of it's takeoff, Thus finishing ahead of Clean Kostner.
    -Plushenko getting +GOE for his wonky triple axle.
    Actually she only received one edge call out of three lutzes at SC and her GOE was 1.20. In the team event she received one edge call and in the individual event received one edge call. Her change of edge is always boderline not an obvious change of edge so it's more murky.

  13. #133
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    It is sad that some people still does not understand what's going on
    http://www.feverskating.com/fevers/65081423 read this.

  14. #134
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    qwerty you have bad logic. The competition was rigged, it's useless to argue how a skater could have received more points.

    Have you ever played in a rigged lottery before? Would you consider buying more tickets for a better chance to win?

  15. #135
    Custom Title yuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8in View Post
    I don't know why qwerty keeps bringing up Hanyu. What does that have to do with this conversation? Is his argument that skaters are entitled to inflated PCS scores, or that everyone gets overmarked on PCS in general?
    Not entirely sure. I think the intention is to show that other young skaters also benefit from inflated PCS - like Yuzuru, the young unknown who placed 3rd and 4th at 2012 and 2013 Worlds, respectively. While it is true that he is overmarked on PCS, my feeling is that this has as much to do with Patrick as it does with Yuzuru - more exactly, the Powers That Be decided to somehow "punish" Patrick for the controversies of his last 2 World wins by making sure he wouldn't be able to win major competitions again with big mistakes, instead of actually addressing the flaws in the scoring that made those wins possible in the first place. For instance, the judges still don't differentiate properly between the various category of PCS, something that Patrick has benefited from several times; while he has excellent SS and very good TR, he has also received very high PE and IN with several disruptive mistakes, lagging behind the music etc. (though to his credit, he has worked on improving his interpretation). Something else to consider is that Yuzuru has actually improved his skating, especially his SS, since moving to Orser and he has good speed and flow (for 3/4 of a FS, at least ) and nice interpretation when given decent material (unlike last year's FS, that he sleepwalked through all season). Of course, my hope is that he continues to improve and corrects his flaws (posture, sloppy lines) so that those PCS seem more justified .

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