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Thread: 2014 Olympics Team Event Free Dance

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinga View Post
    I do not want to start the weigh issue, but you must be kidding, right?? Lena is slim and has beautiful figure. I don't think there is much difference between her and Cappellini. She looks gorgeous in tutu, shorter or longer.
    The same I do - no weigh issues. Lena is slim. I think her tutu or tutu like skirts are longer than that one in 2010/11 season, but maybe it was just arranged in a different way. Why is it longer is not important at all.

    http://i61.tinypic.com/vqs9x4.jpg
    http://i60.tinypic.com/33ttbau.jpg
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    http://i61.tinypic.com/2ev6kb6.jpg

  2. #77
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    To me, I/K seemed cautious, as to avoid making any mistakes, compared to their Euro FD (until the fall) when they absolutely commanded your attention. That is understandable I guess, they need to build their confidence back, but their performance was not their best. Clean and got the job done but no sparkle.
    I don't love V/M's FD and D/W's FD is too frenetic for my taste (the second step sequence was absolutely brilliant though and that speed!!).
    I was sad we didn't get to see P/B's FD again, it is my favorite FD this season

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    If what they were doing (I&K) was so easy, everyone would be able to do what they do, and get the scores that they do when clean.
    I borrowed your comment to COR B&S free dance:
    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    But seriously will speed and ice coverage get you a PCS score of 53, even with a bad fall, bad posture and recycled, unimaginative choreography?
    It would be so nice if judging would be fair and couples were appreciated looking at their skating and dancing.
    You know your favourite couple very well, so you know how many mistakes they made at Nationals and European and how much was their presentation effected with it. They were clean at the Olympic Team Free Dance.

    I&K Russian Nationals PCS: 55,55 9,32 9,07 9,14 9,50 9,30 (GOE + 10,59)
    I&K European PCS: 54,69 9,14 8,86 9,18 9,36 9,21 (GOE +9,42)
    I&K Team Free Dance PCS: 54,12 9,00 8,68 9,25 9,25 9,18 (GOE +10,16)

    This is how judges see ice dance cathegory?

  4. #79
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    We have many misunderstandings with Frenchie and Bramweld…and it is leading to nowhere.
    You, Frenchie, have some impression from me, but other users don’t bother you and an impression from them is OK…???

    Bramweld used many words towards me in different posts:
    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    Finally someone who sees this pile of mud slinging for what it is!! Can we reign in these extreme posts? Sisinka's attitude toward the pair is clearly toxic…

    A whole lotta stuff just got really weird on this thread. Like rabid beasts yeah!!

    I did say her (I don't know if I am correct here) comments seemed prejudiced….
    I just have a problem with so many persons seeming preoccupation to paint them in as worst a light as possible without valid reason. Or at least it baffles me as to why persons need to do this. This in essence is my point.

    Actually I'm not interested in proving her right or wrong. I sort of just move on very quickly where disagreements are concerned or I would like to think so. It was just an opinion.
    Bramweld is not interesting in proving me if I am wrong or right but he is interested in proving everybody here that I must be somebody with toxic attitude…


    Hanca‘s notes to my person:
    Quote Originally Posted by hanca
    The thing is, if someone WANTS to believe something, no matter what I post will persuade them otherwise…. Haters luckily can't influence their skating results, so as long as I/K get on with it, they will be fine! If sisinka finds them so bad, I suggest that she use them as toilet or snack break and does not bother to watch them.

    Sisinka, I am really not going to bother to engage with you in long discussions on how bad I/K is… Your writing style shows sort of desperation!
    Frenchie tried to calm this crazy situation explaining that Hanca didn’t think that I am a hater, but Hanca herself never answered if I was really wrong thinking that “hater“ was to me.

    Where did those people come from? This is a figure skating discussion board, so figure skating and things connecting with the sport should be talked. And what those people doing? I am a person who is used to make an analysis and if there is some question I am trying to find the answers. It is essencial for my job, and unfortunately to I&K fans, it is an essencial for skating as well. You will get nowhere in skating with just saying: “No, I don’t think so, don’t bother me and don’t force me to think about it!“ Exploring why many things happen is an important part of skating, it is pushing the sport to step on next level, fans and even most of skaters don’t see it, but it doesn’t mean that it does not exist. I say my opinions, I come with arguments which are proving my opinions and those people start to punish me like I wouldn’t be normal. There is a space for them to come with their opinions and arguments which are connecting with skating, not with me, but they don’t want to waste their time to look for facts, but they spend a lot of time to think up and come with abusive words to me.
    Am I wrong? Prove it. Or you don’t want to waste your time proving it, fine. In any case, don’t offend me.

    We are talking about ice dancing but where is dancing? Where are great skilled skaters and difficult programs? Where are couples who know what dancing means and who know to dance. I see some of them…as well as I see that some skaters are not reaching those qualities which makes from a dancer really great dancer. Past three years I&K are a couple which I put into a second group of skaters (maybe not forever, they are really very young and if they start to work hard, they can improve in everything). Unfortunately they are the only ones from that second group who are trying to look like and their fans are definitely behaving like they already got the level of top couples. If Zhiganshina & Gazsi or Tobias & Stagniunas got so high marks for their skating, I would be protesting against such marking and I would protest against people saying that the couples are almost the best what ice dancing cathegory offers. But no, those couples are plus minus on place where they belong.

    If not taking into account B&S, P&B and W&P, I can imagine even C&L with World medal more than I&K. D&W and V&M and probably C&L are a role models for all children who are skating and switching to dance in their countries, those kids try to be like them. If I&K will be crowned a World medal what those kids would copy from them – skating out of the rhythm? Open holds with so big distance between the couple? Posing and sending kisses to judges? Not expressing the story? Not excepting music with choreography? Not extended free leg? I don’t like Andrew’s not extended free leg as well as I don’t like Bobrova‘s posture but all couples which took part at GPF have many things which could be offered and teached. Except I&K’s deep edges in some parts on their dances I have really no idea what I could take from the couple and teached it young ones, who want to know and keep asking: “How are great dancers doing it?“ The way I&K does definitely not!

    The problem is not in I&K or in me but in judging system and judges themselves who allows that the couple or couples missing many dancing qualities can reach a high placement. This is not how should ice dancing look like. Or it should change the name into something like “moving on ice“ or “skating with music behind“.

    All former dancers dancing under old judging system knew a lot about dancing and even not good technicians like Margaglio or Kostomarov could dance. Why is dancing completely put down with new judging system? Why are judges giving marks which are not reflected skater’s performances? 9,18 points for timing with out of the rhythm parts? Really? 10 points for choreo with falls? Really? I would be silly to say that old judging system was objective, but it never happened that not good dancers would try to reach top five at Worlds like I&K does.

    Please, I spent some time to explain why I have a criticism to I&K (without persuading anyone not to like the couple), when my criticism to C&L a W&P is not so big – they are dancers, even with not precise technique (but still getting not bad levels) they are continuing in pushing themselves into direction of dancing. I would be pleased if posts from persons who “don’t want to waste their time with me“ didn’t once again to try to push me into a position of somebody who hates the couple or who is toxic or anything more or less abusive.

  5. #80
    Tripping on the Podium TheGothicEme's Avatar
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    oh whatever sisinka, Ilinykh/Katsalapov have no chance to win a medal with that funny thing of a FD. and then, their SD is not likely can end up in top 5 either. You know what, I even put Sinitsina Zhiganshin above them.
    IK are good looking and all, and once upon a time, when I had no ideal what ice dance was, I was their fan. Not much now, you see.

  6. #81
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    I don't know why sisinka hates them but Ilimykh/Katsalapov are bronze medal favorites: Their skating skills are better than other teams lke Pechalat/Bourzat, Weaver/Poje and their programs are better then Bobrova/Soloviev who had to change their free dance twice. Only weakness is levels but they got very good levels at TEB, Europeans and here. Their GOE is very good too.

  7. #82
    Tripping on the Podium TheGothicEme's Avatar
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    no! big no! no no no. IK are nowhere near the level that PB get, they maybe equal to WP though - but I doubt that, and more interesting than BS? again, no. their fd is simple, no story, no big element (you could call that lift at the begining extraordinary, but in fact, it is not, both of his hand keep her legs at the right place, he does all the job, she just stays in his arms and do, well, hardly anything). and to be honest, why "two characters feeling love & passion toward each other" is interesting is beyond my awareness, no, WP's fd is much netter than that. And don't make me go to the short dance, now it truly is the huge failure, not BS' former fd.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGothicEme View Post
    no! big no! no no no. IK are nowhere near the level that PB get, they maybe equal to WP though - but I doubt that, and more interesting than BS? again, no. their fd is simple, no story, no big element (you could call that lift at the begining extraordinary, but in fact, it is not, both of his hand keep her legs at the right place, he does all the job, she just stays in his arms and do, well, hardly anything). and to be honest, why "two characters feeling love & passion toward each other" is interesting is beyond my awareness, no, WP's fd is much netter than that. And don't make me go to the short dance, now it truly is the huge failure, not BS' former fd.

    I must be read wrong really, I don't think I understand right You actually think being that high and away from men's body and only balance point is your knee is easy, she doesn't do any job This is most funny thing I read in 2014 Olympics forum You know If you really think that, maybe you should watch other team's lifts again. If this is easy, I'm sure Pechalat/Bourzat signature lift is easy for Pechalat too. She is not doing anything!

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGothicEme View Post
    no! big no! no no no. IK are nowhere near the level that PB get, they maybe equal to WP though - but I doubt that, and more interesting than BS? again, no. their fd is simple, no story, no big element (you could call that lift at the begining extraordinary, but in fact, it is not, both of his hand keep her legs at the right place, he does all the job, she just stays in his arms and do, well, hardly anything). and to be honest, why "two characters feeling love & passion toward each other" is interesting is beyond my awareness, no, WP's fd is much netter than that. And don't make me go to the short dance, now it truly is the huge failure, not BS' former fd.
    Yeah I'd have to agree with you on that first lift -- the only things extraordinary about that lift are the arch in I's back and, of course, her fierce diva bee-yotch face. I do like I/K and think they have the potential to completely set the tone for the next quad (as Marlie and Voir have done for this one), but I don't find their lifts worthy of the hyperbole they've been generating. Lots of smoke and mirrors so far.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGothicEme View Post
    IK are nowhere near the level that PB get, they maybe equal to WP though - but I doubt that, and more interesting than BS? again, no. their fd is simple, no story, no big element (you could call that lift at the begining extraordinary, but in fact, it is not, both of his hand keep her legs at the right place, he does all the job, she just stays in his arms and do, well, hardly anything)
    Quote Originally Posted by elif
    You actually think being that high and away from men's body and only balance point is your knee is easy, she doesn't do any job
    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles
    Yeah I'd have to agree with you on that first lift -- the only things extraordinary about that lift are the arch in I's back and, of course, her fierce diva bee-yotch face.
    All lifts of top World ten couples are difficult, they can all be level 4. But of course there is a difference in how much difficult is it if you compare lifts of every couple.
    I&K were always weak in lifts, they are even today (in comparison with top teams) althought this year their lifts started to be difficult also. But some couples have more difficult and demanding lifts.
    And also there a difference between lifts which are looking impressive and lifts which are very difficult, it doesn’t go hand in hand.

    Elif thinks that I&K have a difficult lift…let’s go to watch it…I&K first lift – nothing new, Morozov and Cirque du Soleil artist took a position from another couple.
    The same lift was done by Dubreil & Lauzon - http://www.skatecanada.ca/Portals/2/...-Lauzon-lg.png
    Tessa and Scott have the same kind of lift position during their first lift in free dance -
    http://i61.tinypic.com/1607q0y.jpg

    Back to Lena & Nikita's straight line lift – Nikita takes Lena, lifts her making a circle around his neck, Lena rolls about 360 degrees to get her back towards the ice and puts her skates on his chest or better his stomach (in this first part of a lift, you can see that Nikita puts much more energy into this part than Lena), in the second part Lena extends her legs and makes position (leg position is not looking elegant from the front look, but it is impressive from abeam where the judges are sitting). After centering the lift Nikita lifts one leg. In comparison with Dubreil & Lauzon World‘s FD 2006, Nikita centers before lifting leg for a longer moment, in comparison with Scott the same thing, Scott immediately lifts one leg in moment when he is just getting Tessa into a position. Also Tessa’s position is much more difficult than Lena’s position, Scott holds Tessa’s one leg - knee only - Nikita holding both Lena’s knees means that mainly he is the one who centers the lift and Lena just stays stretched. On the other hand Scott holds one Tessa‘s leg, which means that Tessa must put more effort into centering her position, because it is much more easy to loose control and coordination – if she did Scott wouldn’t be able to keep a balance with her.

    If there is only one person who centers a lift, it is difficult for him of course, but if you have both partners who have to center and balance a lift, it opens more opportunities to make mistakes because they have to coordinate their body himself/herself and in the same moment they have to coordinate with each other.

    Natalie & Fabian's straight line lift in free dance – it is very difficult talking about centering the lift. If any not so good couple tried to repeat this lift they would probably finish in a hospital with some serious not only head injury. Fabian‘s position in spread eagle – it is very difficult itself to have such position in lifts. While standing on two feet gives you an opportunity to center the lift better and in moment when the lift is not going well you can always put one of your skates a few centimeters beside to get the balance back. Also when you stand on one foot, if you are loosing balance, you can put your second leg on the ice to center the lift better and not to fall. In spread eagle you don’t have such opportunity, there is no way where to put your leg to save the lift, you take the position and if you loose balance, you or your partner simply fall immediately. Natalie’s position was extremely difficult. First if you have your head down and legs up, it is more difficult for you to have such great coordination of whole body. Second Fabian is fixing her arms only, so the rest of the body must be fixed by Natalie, and she can loose balance in many ways – to go forward, back, to the right or left – everything would lead to a fall. While Nikita is fixing Lena‘s knees – so Lena has free space just from knees to head, but Nikita’s fixation and Lena‘s position is allowing her to go just backword (which is not very easy because the gravity and axis of her body work agains any flexion in her knees), she can’t loose balance forward because of knee joint is extended on maximum, and she can hardly loose balance to the right or left because knee joint is not flexible it that way.

    Tessa & Scott's straight line lift is very difficult – (some notices are already described above in I&K paragraph). The lift starts from spread eagle position while Tessa must center her position on Scott thigh, then changing immediately into one leg position and with difficult and balance demanding position for Tessa.

    Ekaterina & Dmitri's straight line lift in FD – once again Dmitri in spread eagle (like Scott he is already in spread eagle in moment when he lifts a girl – very difficult to balance it), Ekaterina changes three positions, from second to third position Ekaterina must do a half rotation in the air herself (Dmitri’s hands position don’t allow to help her in it).

    Kaitlyn & Andrew's straight line lift in FD – Kaitlyn uses original entrance while Andrew stays on two feet, after fixing Kaitlyn’s position then he changes into spread eagle, then Kaitlyn changes position. Not the most difficult, more close to I&K then to V&M as to difficulty.

    Meryl & Charlie's straight line lift in free dance – while lifting Charlie is already in spread eagle – Meryl in similar position like Natalie, again it is more difficult for Meryl to balance her body with head down, Charlie is helping more than Fabian – he puts his hand on her back which is a better stability point then Fabian’s arms. Still overall a very difficult and demanding lift.

    Anna & Luca's straight line lift in FD – once again Luca already in spread eagle, Anna jumps forward with a half rotation and Luca puts her on his thigh, then Anna has to make a rotation around Luca (who is helping her with it), then he throw her up while she makes an effort into one rotation around her axis. This is probably more demanding for Luca to stabilise himself in all changements in position, Anna has to rotate here and there – she is working too.

    One notice to that I&K’s first lift – I think that the first lift was wanted so much (because it is obvious that many people take it like the highlight of the program) that Morozov forgot about the rules. In the beginning of the season I&K had a press conference and open practise.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeYO_LpDrVs In 1:35 you can see that Nikita takes off a belt which he had because of the first lift.
    During press conference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pNd4...9O3SeqwqlIc4UQ in 2:50 Nikita explains that he uses a belt at practise and costumes will be specially prepared, that a belt helps in lifts not to get an injury, he describes that during the first lift Lena stays on his stomach with her blades, so he needs a protection, then Nikita is asked what about competition, he answers that a belt will be under a costume (maybe he thought a part of a costume), so nobody will notice. But looking at rules RESTRICTIONS FOR CLOTHING - “Accessories and props”: this includes part of the costume used as a support in a Dance Lift.
    And in Handbook for Technical Panel you can find a question (page 59):
    What happens if the lifting partner uses part of the costume as a support? Answer: The Technical Panel will assess the Level regardless of the costume being used as a support. Part of the costume being used a prop, the Judges and Referee will apply the deduction for costume/prop violation.
    Morozov didn’t know or he forgot about it?
    When Nikita uses such belt or belt-like support to be able to perform a lift, it makes his work easier. With this belt which is protecting him he can easily put a majority of Lena’s weight on his stomach and have less smaller part of her weight in his hands, so he uses his arms mainly for stabilization. And this is easier than Scott’s work in a similar lift position.

    If you notice all I&K lifts, not only the first, Nikita uses his shoulder or chest or stomach to reduce his arm‘s work putting a majority of Lena’s weight on another part of his body but arms (which are mainly stabilising her body). Only in last lift in free dance, there are more changements where mainly his arms are needed and because Lena is not helping him in lifts and just waits, immediately that lift looks the most heavy and simply ponderously. Also there is an advantage in rotational lifts when a girl is on partner shoulder or chest – it makes more easy to balance the lift. While a partner holds a girl in his arm only like B&S or W&P in free dance, it puts all girl’s weight on partner’s one arm plus there is an energy from rotation which makes you feel like you would be lifting even more weight. One arm rotational lifts are also more demanding as to balancing the lift – a partner has to keep the centre of rotation on his skates, while girl’s weight and energy of rotation try to put the balance off.

    If you notice all couples mentioned here, you will find that both men and women from all couples are working in every lifts in quite equivalent way. While I&K – you can obviously see that Nikita is working more than Lena (who really looks like she would wait for his acts) and that is why sometimes their lifts looks like a struggle a little bit. And this is also a part of the reason why their lifts are not more difficult. But yes, they improved since last year.

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