Is Lipnitskaya unbeatable? | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Is Lipnitskaya unbeatable?

Isabel_O'Reilly

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 30, 2013
:thumbsup:

I've often asked what if you satisfy all bullets and get an edge call? Do they award +3 then the edge deduction or wash the +3 and only ding for edge call. All people ever give me are links to different rule books which all have loopholes. I just watch the girls and only focus on obvious mistakes. Being a judge is too taxing and very unclear.

In this ISU communication http://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU 1724 S&P SOV_GOE_Levels of difficulties 2012-2013.pdf it says for GOE, first the positives are to be considered then the negative taken away from that one, not from the baseline. For example, if Yuna had a edge call: Her GOE was going to be 3s and maybe a couple of 2s from stingier judges. Then, according to the rules for negative GOE (see page 12) -1 to -2 would be taken away. For unclear edges the final GOE is not required to be negative. For Yuna, I would assume that if she had an edge call, it would be so slight as to be nearly unnoticeable. In that case only -1 needs to be added to her +GOE. Therefore, she would get 2s and then 1's from the stingier judges. The same applies to Julia and every other skater, if the judges were going to give 0 originally, it would be -1. If they were originally going to give 1s and 2s then GOE would be 0s and 1s. If the edge was wrong the whole time an didn't merely switch over, that's a severe wrong edge take-off. Final GOE is required to be negative.




Since people are suddenly talking about whatever she supposedly said about her Lutz being correct. People who are desperate to find something more to criticize Julia for. It's hard to make sense of what she's saying and be 100% accurate because when you look at another language, even one as close to English as French, you can't just translate each individual word in the order that they appear. When you say one sentence in English and the other in French the order of the words changes even for simple sentences. When you get more complex sentences it gets even more complicated. Especially since every language has words or ideas phrased in such a way that they do not translate directly. For a language so much more different than our own, you cannot rely on individually translated words. You need someone who understands both languages to the point where they don't translate the words but instead hear what she says and then can sum up her meaning in English.

(This must be from an earlier competition? Europeans, Grand Prix Final?) From this poor translation I hear that when she was asked about what her coach said, and replied: Again this lutz? Yes it is! her actual response was more saying that the Lutz is a continuing problem for her and an exclamation that urgh, I'm being asked about again. For someone focused on always skating to her full ability it must be a thorn in her side. That's because when you look at the rest she says that when she was younger and still trying to master the jump she did it over and over until it became automatic. Unfortunately with an edge change. Now that she has the jump, they are working on correcting it. She goes on to say that in her coach's group of students they all need to retrain the edge and that they even have time that they solely devote to trying to take-off on the outside edge. She joke(s), I'm not a 100% sure about this, that the time is called outside edge jump classes. Regarding the part I bolded below, she is still talking about those who also train with Eteri, not about other skaters in general. She goes on to say that her Lutz is at the point where she still takes off from an inside edge, in extreme cases the take-off comes off the flat of the blade, and sometimes takes-off from an outside edge.

She's had a few cases where she didn't have an edge change. At SC for example, the one in the SP was ruled clean, and then in the FS, one clean the other wasn't. So sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't. The thing is it's borderline, so each time the technical panel has to review and decide which they will rule. She has done 6 competition this season, with three Lutz per competition. Out of 16(I'm am not counting the one she fell on, or the one she doubled because the GOE was already where it would have with an edge call so it didn't matter) she has been considered clean on 5 of them. So she is definitely working on it.


When I went to Julia, she did not know what she lowered the scores and that the case in Lutz.
- Julia, your coach, Eter Tutberidze thinks your lutz judges evaluated as incorrect.
- Again this lutz? Yes it is! You know, when I was little, I double lutz still so Zouch ... When I started to jump over the edge did not attend. And here I am doing with this approach lutz - not straight, it was a diagonal ... And about ten minutes I had time to do a hundred jumping around and around, and all Lutz, Lutz, Lutz, and all with internal ribs ... Because I already brought the jump to automatism, finally retrain me on the other edge was very difficult. We have a group Etery Tutberidze, however, all retrain. In fact, Lutz clearly from an outside edge jump units! And even now, I do not know any - who have played it perfectly right. But! Because Lutz I have is at the stage I still shift on an outside edge, in extreme cases, may be repulsion occurs with two edges, not only from the internal, that's for sure!
- But you have in any case the highest technical score, therefore, decided something and components?
- Not so much they decided. Wheels less points! A components, among other things, earned even in training judges watched in training is not for everyone - and so selectively ... I'm in Budapest in training for some reason did everything badly. I was approached by friends and sympathetically asked, "Julia, what's wrong?".
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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@Isabelle_

In regards to edge calls that's exactly how I read it. Yet after checking protocols this season I couldn't find a single edge call with positive GOE though. Maybe some panels are being forced to overlook edge calls in order to award a positive overall jump with unclear edge takeoff being only minor flaw in the overall picture.

In terms of awarding GOE it seems people only look at the height of a jump. Julia's flow from entry to the transition out is as effortless as as anyone which a fair judge could award a positive GOE alone. The fact that her 2a-3t-2t combo peaks out on the 2nd jump is very unique in itself and worthy of the height/distance/air positioning part of the bullets. Like I said earlier though the judges have free reign to determine GOE and not bound to the ISU's suggested guidelines.

Side note- In regards to Julia's 2a-3t-2t. I noticed in her warm-ups she really accented the the transition out by dipping her shoulders and nearly touching the ice similar to the second part of her spiral where it looks like she cracks her knuckles. She failed to nail it in the FS though but keep an eye out for it. Little details appear each and every time!
 

KwanIsALegend

Fly On
Medalist
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Feb 2, 2011
God I hope not. I thought this was figure skating. Not a contortionist competition!

Yes!
This is skating ..not posing. I don't get the constant bending, this isn't rhythm gymnastics. Show me your edges and flow over the ice, I don't care if a skater can bend in 50 different ways, that is not skating!
Sasha didn't overdue it the way Yulia does. I don't like it, just skate!
 

Skater Boy

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Feb 24, 2012
But Julia uses her flexibility with quick tansitions nad inbetweens. I kind of think it is amazing she can stay balanced. Her jumps are small but have far better coverage and amplitude than Lipinski when she won. she is also far more aritstic and interpetative than Lipinksi. Her character is well developed - she just mad smart choices for her age and talent people when it comes to programs She uses her giftings - her age, her flexibility to her advantage. And she is relatively unique whereas Ashley and Gold are princesses as are Yuna and Mao. Miss America smiles and glitz nothing unqiue about their programs just graceful femininity.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Yes!
This is skating ..not posing. I don't get the constant bending, this isn't rhythm gymnastics. Show me your edges and flow over the ice, I don't care if a skater can bend in 50 different ways, that is not skating!
Sasha didn't overdue it the way Yulia does. I don't like it, just skate!



Kwan likes it:slink:

She seemed very impressed.

Why does everyone have to skate a certain way to win or garner respect? I think Julia's unique approach has been extremely effective and in fact pushing others to skate better. I think consistency,amazing spins,difficult jumps and unearthly flexibility are a good package and very exciting to watch. The edges will come and some of the flexibility will go but I see no reason she should not be able to interpret FS how she feels best. Nothing wrong with individuality is there. That's why she's been called a breath of fresh air by more than a few people.
 

KwanIsALegend

Fly On
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But Julia uses her flexibility with quick tansitions nad inbetweens. I kind of think it is amazing she can stay balanced. Her jumps are small but have far better coverage and amplitude than Lipinski when she won. she is also far more aritstic and interpetative than Lipinksi. Her character is well developed - she just mad smart choices for her age and talent people when it comes to programs She uses her giftings - her age, her flexibility to her advantage. And she is relatively unique whereas Ashley and Gold are princesses as are Yuna and Mao. Miss America smiles and glitz nothing unqiue about their programs just graceful femininity.


I agree she is better than Lipinski. Tara was very robotic you could see that her 'artistry' did not come naturally, she was all about those 3/3's. Julia's artistry seems more natural.

Julia is impressive, I am not saying she isn't. I do think you can be a great skater and not be all gumby out on the ice. A few good extensions here and there, maybe like a really good spiral that is held for at least 30 seconds, no wobbling, no bent free leg. That is what I find impressive.
 

Isabel_O'Reilly

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 30, 2013
I agree she is better than Lipinski. Tara was very robotic you could see that her 'artistry' did not come naturally, she was all about those 3/3's. Julia's artistry seems more natural.

Julia is impressive, I am not saying she isn't. I do think you can be a great skater and not be all gumby out on the ice. A few good extensions here and there, maybe like a really good spiral that is held for at least 30 seconds, no wobbling, no bent free leg. That is what I find impressive.

The problem is that there just isn't time for that in either program. Spiral should be an element again, so she can do so.


I just found this video, what does everyone think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndHRd5ngMFU
 

figurejennah

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 27, 2009
I am extremely shocked with the crazy inflated scores. I could never imagine that one could get 140+ with flutz and under rotation.
I remember the times when you couldn't get over 70 in SP and 130 in LP without absolutely spectacular performances. (Which means, performances without any of those jump problems mentioned)

Yuna and Mao are phenoms, and I just can't put Julia in their category. Now the talk is going for Yuna vs. Julia and how Julia is unbeatable, but this talk is only going on because the Olympics is held in Russia. Julia is an amazing spinner, but Caroline Zhang in my opinion was way better. If you can get that ridiculous score with just spins, I don't know what figure skating is about.

Please, someone watch this performance where Yuna set a world record with 133, and tell me if Julia's 140+ performance is really better than this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiBqLlbAGEE

I just can't accept Julia's olympic scores.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
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Jan 4, 2010
Some people are clearly incapable of reading and understanding.

It clearly said "In case of multiple errors the corresponding reduction are added."

http://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU 1724 S&P SOV_GOE_Levels of difficulties 2012-2013.pdf

Poor speed, height, distance, air position -1 to -2
Poor take-off -1 to -2

So even if Julia's jumps have the most creative entry/exit (which she doesn't) most amazing flow (which she doesn't) most timed with music (again, really?) she would get +2 GOE of the positive column.

In the negative column, the reductions also add up

- 2 for poor take off.
- 2 for poor speed, height, distance.

Total = - 4 GOE.

Let say she satisfied 6 bullets
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

That would be + 3 GOE - 4 GOE = -1 GOE at best!!! At best!!!

Do you understand this?

So, for the flz-3T, she would get -2 to -3 GOE at best.

I see all of her jumps carrying -2 to -4 GOE due to poor speed, height to poor take off. Clearly, even with +3 GOE, she cannot overcome her short coming.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Hey flatt_fan

While your very unbiased point is taken. If you read your own post you'll notice the bullet points don't say most creative exit or most flow from a jump to be awarded. Maybe I just don't read right but I'm not seeing that. So your argument just seems odd and frankly mean spirited too me. You say one thing and then present evidence that counters it. I have maintained that the judges do not need to follow these suggested guidelines...it's in the ISU rules they are only suggested. So it's true a fair impartial judge like yourself could reward Julia -3's all day. I'm not sure that would be of great service to this sport.

FYI from what I've seen even the strictest judges only take .30 off of Julia's minor flutz and on wher worst in Japan it was -.60. I think the BV is 10.10 on her 3ltz-3t and when called in Japan she got 9.80 credited. What would you have it as? Downgrade to a double, apply under rotation, edge call, and ding her for her step out in Russian Nats evertime she jumps?
 

Frenchie

I'm gonna customize the CRAP out of this title!
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A few good extensions here and there, maybe like a really good spiral that is held for at least 30 seconds, no wobbling, no bent free leg. That is what I find impressive.
I'm afraid a 30 second spiral has never even come remotely close to being done in competition in the history of mankind ;)
 

jenaj

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It clearly said "In case of multiple errors the corresponding reduction are added."

If that what it really says, it isn't very clear: the corresponding reduction are added?

I don't think Julia's jumps have poor height. They are not huge, but I wouldn't characterize them as "poor." They also have pretty good distance and speed. Her take-off is good. I don't think she deserves reductions (except for the flutz). The only question, I think, is how much positive GOE, if any, she deserves.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Akiko unfortunately showed us a few jumps with poor height in her FS. So sad for her. She could have done so much better. Hopefully she got those nerves out of her.
 

FlattFan

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While your very unbiased point is taken. If you read your own post you'll notice the bullet points don't say most creative exit or most flow from a jump to be awarded. Maybe I just don't read right but I'm not seeing that. So your argument just seems odd and frankly mean spirited too me. You say one thing and then present evidence that counters it. I have maintained that the judges do not need to follow these suggested guidelines...it's in the ISU rules they are only suggested. So it's true a fair impartial judge like yourself could reward Julia -3's all day.

Huh?
I said even if you give her all the bullet points, even creative exit, flow, etc... She would get +2 or +3 GOE.
After getting +2 or +3 GOE, she will then get -2 GOE on poor take off (hello, her 2A is atrocious, the worst ever), another -2GOE for poor speed, height, distance, because, hello, it's obviously that she was barely 2 inches off the ice.

So in the end, even if she satisfies 6-8 bullet points for + GOE, her final GOE would still be in the negative because of the nature of her jump and her technique, mainly poor take off, and poor height.

There's no way she can get any + GOE on any of her jumps even if she satisfies most of the + GOE bullet. This is where they didn't apply the rule correctly.

If jenaj said one more time that Julia's take off is good, we should chip in a buy her a pair of glasses. Have you seen her 2A getting +2 GOE?
 

zamboni step

Final Flight
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Feb 14, 2013
Huh?
I said even if you give her all the bullet points, even creative exit, flow, etc... She would get +2 or +3 GOE.
After getting +2 or +3 GOE, she will then get -2 GOE on poor take off (hello, her 2A is atrocious, the worst ever), another -2GOE for poor speed, height, distance, because, hello, it's obviously that she was barely 2 inches off the ice.

So in the end, even if she satisfies 6-8 bullet points for + GOE, her final GOE would still be in the negative because of the nature of her jump and her technique, mainly poor take off, and poor height.

There's no way she can get any + GOE on any of her jumps even if she satisfies most of the + GOE bullet. This is where they didn't apply the rule correctly.

If jenaj said one more time that Julia's take off is good, we should chip in a buy her a pair of glasses. Have you seen her 2A getting +2 GOE?

Her 3F, 3T and 3L take offs definitely aren't deduction worthy bad to begin with, although at the Team even, I thought poor landings should have come into play a little, and her speed isn't Caroline Zhang bad going into the jumps, I think her 2A, 3S and 3Lz could be penalised based off what she does on the day, a lot of her 3Lzs are questionable in rotation (especially the 3Lz-3T ones) and her Salchow is her weak jump. Plus the 2A is obviously deserving of being hit for poor technique. I'd say these should be the max GOE of her jumps.

2A- 0, maybe +1 if she really did a good one by her standards. Any wobble and -2, she shows no fear going in which I think saves her.
3T- +2, she can do them from pretty interesting entrances (Euros exhibition) and they're pretty effortless, although +1 and 0 are also justifiable.
3L- +1, in the FS it has pretty obvious steps linking in, it's effortless and she gets ok flow coming out. The height is pretty weak though so I'd hesitate about anything above 0.
3F- +1, with the linking steps the on in the FS has with a nice controlled landing (she does one or two every now and again ;)) Otherwise 0. -2 if edge call.
3Lz- -1, almost always borderline, almost always really muscled out, never much flow. -3 if edge call.
 

lavender

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Jul 26, 2003
I agree she is better than Lipinski. Tara was very robotic you could see that her 'artistry' did not come naturally, she was all about those 3/3's. Julia's artistry seems more natural.

Julia is impressive, I am not saying she isn't. I do think you can be a great skater and not be all gumby out on the ice. A few good extensions here and there, maybe like a really good spiral that is held for at least 30 seconds, no wobbling, no bent free leg. That is what I find impressive.

This....
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I am extremely shocked with the crazy inflated scores. I could never imagine that one could get 140+ with flutz and under rotation.
I remember the times when you couldn't get over 70 in SP and 130 in LP without absolutely spectacular performances. (Which means, performances without any of those jump problems mentioned)

Yuna and Mao are phenoms, and I just can't put Julia in their category. Now the talk is going for Yuna vs. Julia and how Julia is unbeatable, but this talk is only going on because the Olympics is held in Russia. Julia is an amazing spinner, but Caroline Zhang in my opinion was way better. If you can get that ridiculous score with just spins, I don't know what figure skating is about.

Please, someone watch this performance where Yuna set a world record with 133, and tell me if Julia's 140+ performance is really better than this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiBqLlbAGEE

I just can't accept Julia's olympic scores.

Oh the days when Caroline's spins use to blow me away but now...:disapp:
 
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