Is Lipnitskaya unbeatable?

http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14 S&P Establishing GOE.pdf
This link was provided to me some time back by another user. It's the last sentence in the first paragraph.

So crowd factor cannot be used. I was wrong on that thank god. But it does say the number of bullet points satisfied to award GOE is a suggestion. The bulletpoints are pretty much up for interpretation too. If I'm wrong ill admit it but I see lots of room for inconsistency. That's my point.

Some people can't read and can't see. Oh well, no big deal.

Who else can do a full 180 split while accelerating very quickly in a spin, without eventually traveling on it? Nobody ever.

Click to expand...

So? Just because it's accelerating quickly doesn't mean you can negate the negative? Hello, there's a positive side, which she got + GOE for that specific "accelerating" There's also negative side, which she should be docked for travelling.

Why have a rule against travelling and not use it? You like to selectively use the PCS and GOE all the time. Just like Russian judges.

FlattFan said:

Some people can't read and can't see. Oh well, no big deal.

So? Just because it's accelerating quickly doesn't mean you can negate the negative? Hello, there's a positive side, which she got + GOE for that specific "accelerating" There's also negative side, which she should be docked for travelling.

Why have a rule against travelling and not use it? You like to selectively use the PCS and GOE all the time. Just like Russian judges.

Click to expand...

She was docked for it in the long because she started traveling as soon as she hit the split position, but the rest of the positions were centered and well executed. Still she kept her position and still rotated at fast speed. Her GOE when completely centered in final position: 1.50. GOE here: 1.00. Does anyone else not understand that according to the criteria for GOE she could only have a -1 at most added to the +3s she normally gets for that spin? And that it what she got.

If you watch a video of the short program you will see that she was almost completely centered through the transition into the split position and was 100% centered for the first seven revolutions in the full split position. At that point she had exceeded the requirements for revolutions while centered. The rest of the revolutions? Mere icing on the cake for those who think rotating at that speed, in that position is extraordinary.

I put the video into Movie gallery, clipped the spin and then slowed it to 0.25x to count the revolutions. 37 revolutions in 15 seconds for the whole spin, but in the split position she had 21 revolutions in 7 seconds. I thought that was interesting.

And another thing, why do people keep saying that she travels on her spins, like it's a general thing instead of something that happens only on the final position of a four-position combination spin? Also she traveled on it both times here, but check out the same spin in the FS at SC or the SP and FS at Europeans:100% centered. She is known for wanting to be perfect, so I'm sure her focus at that point of the SP and FS will be devoted solely to staying centered for the individual event.

Travelling is travelling.
At most -1 GOE? Read again. It's -1 to -3. Her travelling is the worst. If that doesn't warrant a -3 GOE, what will it take to get a -3 GOE? Let's twizzle and call it spin, you can twizzle half a rink and that wouldn't get a -3 GOE, right?

FlattFan said:

Travelling is travelling.
At most -1 GOE? Read again. It's -1 to -3. Her travelling is the worst. If that doesn't warrant a -3 GOE, what will it take to get a -3 GOE? Let's twizzle and call it spin, you can twizzle half a rink and that wouldn't get a -3 GOE, right?

Click to expand...

Twizzling half the rink would be a great feature in a footwork sequence. A footwork sequence with a half-the-rink twizzle would never deserve -3 GOE.

Skater Boy said:

How do we decide deserves or is worthy of oGM i THINK YUR WAY OF THINKING WOuld mean give the gold to Dai and or Chanin the men and not Hanyu..

Click to expand...

Nope. There's a reason I put "worthy" is scare quotes. The distinction I'm making is one between desert and worth. Not the same thing. Anyone can deserve to win the Olympic Gold Medal fair square, so long as they are the best skater of the competition. Worth is more about the value of their entire career and their body work all things considered.

Yulia can deserve the OGM in Sochi, but others are clearly more "worthy" of it.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Reading in between the lines of FlattFan is like saying there is a blade of grass in that desert. I don't think it's there nor am i gonna search for it but I don't doubt you can find one.

Click to expand...

Haha, blade of grass? Don't get frustrated because people are dissenting. We don't have to take dissenting opinions for attack. BTW I also believe in the independence of judges as long as their judging reflects figure philosophy and principle. Unanimity often means uninspiring monotony.

ahy said:

You mean 2009 worlds?

Click to expand...

Yes if my memory is correct.

Here is an average jane skating fan who thinks Yuna still has a chance :


"In the ladies, I just can’t wait to see Kim Yuna! At her best, there’s nobody that can come close to her." --Dorothy Hamill
http://parade.condenast.com/261492/dorothyhamill/who-is-dorothy-hamills-favorite-sochi-olympic-figure-skater/



Dorothy is very complimentary of her young rivals, including Julia, Gracie, and Ashley, and very generously acknowledges their potential, but it's pretty clear who is still alpha female in her mind.


(A hat tip to inspiration of yunaforum, who flagged the article. )

FlattFan said:

Travelling is travelling.
At most -1 GOE? Read again. It's -1 to -3. Her travelling is the worst. If that doesn't warrant a -3 GOE, what will it take to get a -3 GOE? Let's twizzle and call it spin, you can twizzle half a rink and that wouldn't get a -3 GOE, right?

Click to expand...

Poor/awkward position(s), slow, traveling -1 to -3. Applies to the whole combination spin. For the SP: Let's see for the first three position, and two transitional positions: centered, fantastic positions, great speed. For the required # number of revolutions in split position :100% centered, great position, incredible speed (she got three rotations a second) Final 14 (of 21) revolutions in split spin: amazing position, unbelievable speed, traveled. Out of those criteria she blew them out of the water during the required part. The exact same as if a skater completed a extra jump, say an axel, off the landing edge of the last jump they were allowed to do. It may be good and it may be bad but it would have no effect on the jump mark. So eight of the nine judges, at least five of which have no reason to mark her generously give her 3s. Then for the LP: traveled only on final position. Out of these criteria, poor/awkward position(s), slow, traveling, she only traveled ergo she only gets -1 added to the usual +3s, Final GOE 1.00 compared to the 1.50 she gets when she's fully centered.

And were you saying -3 three total or -3 added to her +3 positive GOE for satisfying 6+ bullets of the spin criteria? First the positives are to be considered which take her to + 3 then the negative added to the positive not the baseline. +3 + (-1) = +2, +2 + (-2) = 0, etc. I can tell you what it would take for them to take away more GOE from an otherwise perfect spin that traveled during the last part of a combination: She would have to travel immediately (got her -1 added to her +3 in the LP= 2), then she would have be spinning super-slowly (instead of at superspeed, which would get her +1 overall) and she would have to lose her balance and fail to keep in position (which would take her to 0). At this point even though Poor/awkward position(s), slow, traveling is on the list where final GOE execution is not required to be negative I am sure that all judges, other than the russian one(0) would have her at -1. But that would never happen because it has not happened in fourteen competition and twenty-eight program over the course of three years. And those are only the international ones.

I hope Julia isn't unbeatable, that would be a boring night if she were! I'm hoping for a great competition where the top ladies go clean and it's close so we'll be debating it for years.

Basically, why can't every year be like 1998? Best ladies competition ever, several amazing performances that are still debated today, and a backflip to boot!

@Robeye

Of course Yuna has a chance. In fact I think most think she will win. What is silly is to not expect Julia to keep her honest and earn her last triumph. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. That's assuming too that Mao doesn't go clean too which is such a wildcard. No one will cry foul if Yuna falls and gets a medal. That in itself is a win IMO.

Ill answer the thread again...No. Julia is not unbeatable. She is likely however to skate better than the team event for whatever that's worth. She seems to possess a fast learning curve and knows how to improve every skate if this season is any indication. May the best girl win so I can for them. Whoever that may be.

Here is an article about her choice of using Schindler's List.
http://www.salon.com/2014/02/10/was_yulia_lipnitskayas_schindlers_list_skating_routine_tasteless/

I found multiple stories in Jewish Journal that praised her for having the courage to perform such a piece as to make people remember and never forget. Please let's not go there!' FYI salon is a radical online news mag known for sensalizating stories snd not using facts and instead playing on emotions. Please don't go there.:scowl::disagree::disagree:
Instead go here!!
http://www.jewishjournal.com/martini_judaism/item/schindler_on_ice
or here
http://www.thewrap.com/olympics-watch-julia-lipnitskaias-schindlers-list-homage-video/

KwanIsALegand said:

Here is an article about her choice of using Schindler's List.
http://www.salon.com/2014/02/10/was_yulia_lipnitskayas_schindlers_list_skating_routine_tasteless/

Click to expand...

Wow, what a nasty article. Anyone can say she's not the best and rising above the elements to give the right artistic expression of the music (which I don't agree with as I, and others have been moved by what she conveys, some even to tears) but that was just mean.

I mean to criticize the girl who chose to skate to this music and wear this symbolic costume because of what it means to her? Even when the adults around her, the coaches and choreographers wanted to refuse to let her and said she couldn't? I mean she stuck to what she wanted to show the world until they let her. And she designed the costume(s) with her mother. This is not an idea of a program and costume made by others for the purpose of making people (whatever you want to fill in here, be manipulated by the music, etc.) This is a deeply personal piece of herself she's showing to people, so be a little less skeptical and search out why she's skating to this music.

Sam-Skwantch said:

I found multiple stories in Jewish Journal that praised her for having the courage to perform such a piece as to make people remember and never forget. Please let's not go there!' FYI salon is a radical online news mag known for sensalizating stories snd not using facts and instead playing on emotions. Please don't go there.:scowl::disagree::disagree:

Click to expand...

What about the BBC?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-26116559

These are valid questions. The COP are suppose to remove subjectivity from the sport, so should marks be awarded based on subjectivity rather than what is actually delivered on ice irrespectively?

Does that mean the next 15 years old Jewish skater skate to Diary of Anne Frank - The Musical at world championship take place in New York should see their PCS shot up by 10 points? Or how about the next 15 years old Japanese kid performing to sound track to Graves of the fireflies (Powerful Studio Ghibli/Miyasaki film about war orphans during WW2) at world championship in Tokyo, all practically emotionally blackmailing the audience into a cry fest with these very subjective built-in qualities? Should any of these matter in an universal Olympic standard sport where one assume everyone should be able to compete on equal grounds regardless of ethnicity, race, nationality, age or appearance and other physical attributes?

I have always had similar problems with Asian female skating to Miss Saigon, Madam Butterfly, Memoir of a Geisha too or anything put them in a familiar (stereotyped) sympathetic role with these built in emotional/tragic qualities for example. It is one of those lazy decisions that banked on pre-existing subjectivity instead find a challenging piece where they need to work extra harder through pure musicality and performance to make an impression.

For the record, personally I have no problem with the program since Julia being 15, a fearless, guileless and an innocent knows what can work in her. But I do have a problem with sensationalism and poor judging. Is she being awarded for things that are largely subjective through the material selection or purely based on what she is able to deliver on ice on the day through skills and athleticism in a Olympic standard sport of universal excellence?

Should this sport be won based on packaging before anything took place on ice?

That BBC article seemed fair and if anything supported both articles I sighted.

Of course you should package your skaters music, imagery, skills on display to maximize their chance to win? Aren't you doing them a disservice otherwise? This is a sport is it not? I've helped many girls select their music and offered suggestions with parts that are perfect for their particular elements they exceed in.

I guess when you use such a strong piece of history and incorporate it into your routine you are opening a door for your critics. Especially ones just looking to bring you down anyway possible. I for one see nothing but somber respect on display but then again I'm a glass is half full kind of person. It maybe is the best FS of the year and she not unlike Yuna is just skating and not concerned overly with what the judges are doing.

Again: When asked about her best skate ever she said"that was just the score". Smart kid this one.

To answer the thread....no. Julia is completely beatable.

In a way, I hope she doesn't win. Os168 makes some good points. I would hate to see a trend of "political statement" long programs, and I could see that happening if she wins and her victory is attributed to her choice of music. There are a lot of movies that show the oppression of (fill in the group), and they all have soundtracks, I'm sure. How could a judge give a low PCS score in interpretation or choreography when the skater is supposed to be a freedom fighter or a martyr or whatever? A couple of seasons of that, and I for one will be dying for a few Carmens or Sheherazades!

On the other hand, remember the French ice dancers who skated to what was more or less a speech by IIRC, Martin Luther King? They didn't start a trend, so maybe I'm being cynical.

Anyway, I'm the original poster here, and after reading all your very informed posts, I am down to Julia being only 75% unbeatable now!

pangtongfan said:

2010 was by far the best ladies competition ever. 1998 only had two skaters that were of the highest caliber, the top 2 were literally 5 falls better than the rest (and legitimately so, not in some Chan like judges invented fashion).

Click to expand...

1. Watch Lu Chen's LP and tell me again she'd have lost to Kwan or Lipinski falling 5 times.
2. pangtongfan, I dare you to spend a whole day without writing the word Chan in a thread not related to him or to the men's event.
Scratch that. I dare you to not post for 10 years.

Seeing Julia's score sheets, inflation is so cute.