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Thread: Yulia Lipnitskaya: Olympic Thread

  1. #136
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    I haven't read the entire thread, but my thoughts:

    1. I've seen Lipnitskaia live and in top form. She's very talented and her programs suit her well.

    2. She's overmarked on PCS for what she is currently doing. She's not in the same league as Kostner and Kim at this point in her development as a skater.

    3. Frank Carroll needs to focus on coaching his skaters and not sniping to the media about their competitors, especially when said competitors are very young. This is not the first time.

    4. I have no objection to Carroll complaining about the judging system in general, and providing entertaining quotes like the one about spitting nickels as a level feature

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by vegarin View Post
    Okay, if you're saying that PCS are not relative scores, then I can see it. So that would mean that, for example, Julia getting better SS points in PCS over Caro does not have to indicate that when I look at their edge techniques next to each other, I (or most people) should usually find Julia's techniques to be better than Caro's therefore deserving of the higher SS. PCS, in this case, would mean that the judges looked at Julia's performance and just gave her the scores they thought she should get at the moment, not relative to any other skaters' skills. Is that right, or am I totally confused?

    Not that I know anything about the intricate nature of how to judge and score FS performances outside what I've learned from here and there, but. But, okay, even if PCS isn't relativistic to what other skaters are capable of (a big if that doesn't make sense to me, to be honest), I would still find it weird that Julia's own PCS scores jumped significantly during just four months. I don't think Julia improved quite that much? I mean, she's been always pretty consistent with what she puts out there. I find it hard to buy that the judges felt that now she suddenly deserves 9.5 and 10 when she didn't mere four months ago, unless there was some sort of policy or category changes among the judges.

    ...and this way leads to conspiracy theories. So, okay, whatever. At this point I really don't care. I just want to see my favourite skaters skate well and see them be happy with the results, no more no less.
    Yes the first paragraph is exactly right.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88 View Post
    And vice versa

    Your ignorance also extends to the fact that you have not read what I said - a clean Mao and Kim will beat a clean Julia L

    Kostners PCS marks have always been inflated, and a clean Kostner can no longer beat a clean Julia L
    And what about responding to my question first? Do you REALLY think that Julia Lipnitskaya should get the same PCS as Mao, Carolina and Yu-Na??

  4. #139
    Riveted vegarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Yes the first paragraph is exactly right.
    So in your view, that's how the judging was always like -- they would give out SS, TR, CR, whatever, completely independent of what the numbers seem to represent (higher the score, better your skills are comparably than those who receive lower scores), so it's perfectly fine that while Julia's PCS numbers indicate that objectively her skills should look better next to those who receive lower scores, that may not be the case. That's tantamount to saying she doesn't need to possess a clearly better SS to deserve a higher score. Therefore, this is completely acceptable. That's about right?

  5. #140
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    It feels like some sort of bullying when a coach put down his skater's direct competiter like this. This is not the first time for him.

  6. #141
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    It didn't sound like complaining to me. Frank said she deserved to win the free program, he just stated that she was not on par with getting the same marks as a Patrick chan, which I think most of us can agree on. I also appreciate that he states his opinion.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsk8fan View Post
    It didn't sound like complaining to me. Frank said she deserved to win the free program, he just stated that she was not on par with getting the same marks as a Patrick chan, which I think most of us can agree on. I also appreciate that he states his opinion.
    Do you think any judges will have Franks comments in mind when Gracie faces judging? Just wondering? Could these comments haunt the scores by even a half point here or there?

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Do you think any judges will have Franks comments in mind when Gracie faces judging? Just wondering? Could these comments haunt the scores by even a half point here or there?
    Many people have already said on this very thread that judges don't give crap about what Frank Carroll may or may not have said. It's your choice if you want to believe whatever you want to believe, but Frank has commented on Chan's PCS before. Do you think it had any effect whatsoever on his scores? Ask anyone.

  9. #144
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    I don't know if the judges actually care what Frank Carroll thinks, but if his comments do effect judging of Gracie then I believe that is just as bad or worse than over scoring Julia. I do think his comments are overblown. There is truth to them. I don't know why posters here feel that he was attacking Julia because he believed Gracie should have won the free program, he did not say that. Frank thought Julia PCS were too high for where she is in her skating ability. She is a talent and he recognized that, also stating she won the free program. Where is the scandal in that ? I, too, believe she is not at the nine, ten level.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by vegarin View Post
    Many people have already said on this very thread that judges don't give crap about what Frank Carroll may or may not have said. It's your choice if you want to believe whatever you want to believe, but Frank has commented on Chan's PCS before. Do you think it had any effect whatsoever on his scores? Ask anyone.
    I don't condone any such judging practices but so many assume that the judging is unfair/bribed/corrupt and I was just asking for the sake of discussion. I hope the best girl wins and strongly believe if any of the top girls get a medal it will be well deserved.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsk8fan View Post
    I don't know if the judges actually care what Frank Carroll thinks, but if his comments do effect judging of Gracie then I believe that is just as bad or worse than over scoring Julia. I do think his comments are overblown. There is truth to them. I don't know why posters here feel that he was attacking Julia because he believed Gracie should have won the free program, he did not say that. Frank thought Julia PCS were too high for where she is in her skating ability. She is a talent and he recognized that, also stating she won the free program. Where is the scandal in that ? I, too, believe she is not at the nine, ten level.
    She is not at the nine, ten level. I don't know what protocols he looked at but Julia only received a single 10 in IN from the russian judge, probably, at Europeans also, a 9.75 in PE, which given the sublime performance she gave in the prograam was perfectly well deserved. All the rest of her scores vary from, high sevens and eights for SS and TR which the judges have always recognized as her weakness (her score has always been significantly lower in SS and then even lower in TR, which I see as a strength for her so I don't understand that), to mainly mid to high eights for PE, IN, and CH. You cannot deny that she has been getting better all season especially in the latter three.

    People seem to be forgetting or just not realizing that that single 10 and 9.75 would have been dropped before the remaining seven were averaged. That's the whole point of this system to drop the highest and lowest as outliers, and go with the majority voiced by seven judges. And people will see this as unfair? That the majority of her components were from 8.00 to 8.75? I could for example complain that she was given 7.25, 7.50, and 7.75s from some of the judges in IN and CH when I felt those were too low for the level of skating she gave on that night but I won't. That's the whole point, these judges have a range of decisions on her components, just like for any other skater. And we need to respect it.

    Regarding her performance at the team event, I am perfectly alright with what she received in SS and transitions, mainly because I believe her TR score should be higher, but let's see: Julia had 8.43, 8.07, while Carolina had 8.64, 8.36. Let's say everyone in the world suddenly unanimously decides that Julia's were too high. Change her SS score to 7.43 close to the lowest she's had all season and also drop TR to 7.07, Julia still wins. Drop all of them by 0.50 so each component is 7.XX except for CH which would be 8.04(CH definitely deserves to be at eight or higher and Julia still wins. Drop them a bit further and Julia might tie with Carolina: the tie-breaker TES, Julia wins. For Mao increase each PCS component (by the way she was marked higher on SS just like Carolina was) to a 9.5. She's still in third. the reason she lost was becase of the triple Axel.

    In the FS, increase everyone else's PCS to 9.5. Julia still wins.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88 View Post
    Disgraceful comments by Frank Carroll. This is blatant politicking, as it would suit both him and Gracie Gold absolutely fine if the judges started reducing Julia Lipnitskaya's PCS scores.
    LOL.

    It would better benefit everyone if Julia's PCS marks were reduced.

    And politicking?

    Please.

    It's not like the federations (and personal coaching teams) of your favorite skaters don't do it. Let's just say it right now, figure skating is a political sport.

  13. #148
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    I totally agree with you. I still can't get over the fact that she got similar PC's with Mao Asada, who is clearly superior (even with the fall and the mistakes on the jumps)

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjsk8fan View Post
    I don't know if the judges actually care what Frank Carroll thinks, but if his comments do effect judging of Gracie then I believe that is just as bad or worse than over scoring Julia. I do think his comments are overblown. There is truth to them. I don't know why posters here feel that he was attacking Julia because he believed Gracie should have won the free program, he did not say that. Frank thought Julia PCS were too high for where she is in her skating ability. She is a talent and he recognized that, also stating she won the free program. Where is the scandal in that ? I, too, believe she is not at the nine, ten level.
    My comment about it, is that him commentating on her was inappropriate for his current position. If Frank Carroll was a commentator for NBC, his comments would be completely fine, but he is the coach of another Olympic competitor.

    And I disliked the 'she's good but not that good' - I hate sentences that start with compliment and end with an insult; it makes the compliment seem disingenuous; like you were saying a compliment so that you could criticize someone but pretend like you weren't.

  15. #150
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    Frank said she is excellent but not fabulous .....yet. Read the comments again. I don't think they were as negative as you think. Julia doesn't deserve those huge PCS, but she is a huge talent and Frank recognizes that

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