Ladies Short - Notes & Results | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Ladies Short - Notes & Results

preztobe

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
MK

Okay, I've kept my mouth shut for a while, but, I think it's time to speak. I've ALWAYS thought MK was WAAAAY overrated, and I'll say it again--- "WAY OVERRATED". I think we can reflect upon the 13 year old who "won the hearts of the world" while going thru one of the worst scandals in FS history-Tonya and Nancy.
Some of her programs throughout the years were great, but, more often than not, they were all programs that were the SAME.
Most skaters would have been penalized over the years for rehashing the SAME thing, but, I think that MK along with her fans have taken this fact for granted, and NOW that reality has caught up with MK, there's suddenly controversy.
There have been numerous competitions in which I thought that other skaters from other countries had more interesting and more technical programs that MK, but, were not held up. I think if she wants to be the best, this may be the time to reflect and make the necessary changes, and to stop expecting the judges to "give" her the championship. So necessary changes: different spins, rather than the one spin that she does, over and over and over again;more speed, different footwork,different spirals, and of course, different cheoreography, and truly "feeling the music", not the fake smile that she always plasters on her face, and for this example of "feeling the music", she might want to refer to Alexei Yagudin's programs, from any of his competitive years, or even Plushy. She might even want to refer to Yagudin as someone who constantly re-invented himself...and thus, was/is one of the best male skaters in the modern era. Okay, I'm off my soap box. I really don't care who wins, but, folks, let's be realistic, and not have some fantasy of what isn't.
As far as the deductions, well, even if she got the points back, she'd still lag behind the three other women, so, it's a moot point. There's no reason for an unnecessary controversy.
 

preztobe

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
MK response

I see that you still haven't much to comment on everything else.
MK would still be starting at 5.2 instead of 5.1---way behind the other 3 women.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Rgirl,
I totally agree with your analysis of the situation. The judges are probably looking at different things since they've implemented COP. MK didn't choreograph her programs for the COP b/c her Tosca program at Nationals was extremely empty compared to Sasha's Swan Lake program. These judges are getting saavy at looking at more than jumps.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Re: MK response

preztobe said:
I see that you still haven't much to comment on everything else.
MK would still be starting at 5.2 instead of 5.1---way behind the other 3 women.

That's one judge...many think she could be second if they added the deductions. Anyways, many are arguing that it's the principle of the deductions...even if it doesn't improve her rank, the fact that she might have gotten a mandatory deduction that might have been unwarranted is what the problem is.

The reason why I didn't comment on anything else was because I have no problem with the rest of your first post because that was all your personal opinion.
 

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I understand the time limit rule, but I must say, and I have over 15 years worth of video tapes on figure skating, plus having watched skating events both live and on tape since the early 60's, that I can't recall an elite skater being called on a "time issue"........it stands out and calls for question and reflection.

As far as I have read, Michelle was not the one who complained about the time sanction against her skating.......

And as for skater's "knowing the rules" than to program a performance so close to the time limit, (here I go with another analogy), pro football players know better than to "clip", but it still happens, basketball players know better than to "goal tend", but it still happens.........I could go on and on....

I personally hope that the time limit sanction stands.....it would only cause bad feelings and more comments of "sour grapes" and "baby" would be slung. 42
 

tharrtell

TriGirl Rinkside
On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Two things:

(1) I think my take on the whole thing is the same as Show's. Yeah, the time limit is a rule. As a rule, it should be help up. However, I've been watching skating since the early 80's (granted I was quite young at that time and wouldn't necessarily remember), and I do not remember someone being docked for this. I doubt Michelle is the first skater who has gone over 2:40. Why are they suddenly taking the deduction? Historical judging has set a precedent so I can see that skaters/coaches/choreographers etc. wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about that particular rule. If people were worried about ending 2 seconds beyond the music (not much time at all), I can't see anyone having a cut of music more than 2:30 just to be safe. Like I said earlier, it's a rule and should be followed, but there should be consistency.

soogar said:
MK didn't choreograph her programs for the COP b/c her Tosca program at Nationals was extremely empty compared to Sasha's Swan Lake program.

(2) I don't mean to pick on Sasha here, but I just know more about her program than the other ladies. Anyway, for Nationals, Sasha took out a lot of the difficulty that had been included for the CoP. From her journal before Worlds, it appeared as though she had watered it down even more. She's not even doing all the triples (axel excluded, of course) the other ladies are.

I adore good footwork and a well balanced program, but to say that Michelle has the only empty program is just not true.
 

April

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
So Bizarre

Now, I don't know if being docked for time is a good thing in figure skating. I think a time range would be more fesible, with exceptions. That time frame would probably create better music cuts. Anyway, time and figure skating is subjective by nature.

On another subject, some folk think MK is way "overrated." Well, everyone at the top becomes overrated. We become familiar we their style, presentation, or talent. She dominated the mid and late 90's. Kwan is pioneer in her sport. I don't like every performance or programs by her, but darn it she's consititently good. I am not impressed by skaters that bomb, fail apart, and come back in maybe two competitions out of twelve. A real champ rises to the challenge, despite the obstacles.If MK skated a clean program, then she sould be reward and not docked over this bizarre time protocol. There is something very weird about this whole issue that will over shadow the whole ladies competition. This drama is not fair for SC or the japanese ladies; and I know MK is not trying to portray a poor loser. I think it is unfortunate for MK because despite "haters" she is a world class skater, period. She goes out and skates her best 99.8% of the time. This world championship will prove that MK can over come any obstacle, ones imagined and real.
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
I'm REALLY dying here...

My comments are NOT about Michelle nor my completely subjective opinons about her skating.

HOW IS A TIME LIMIT SUBJECTIVE?????? To me, that's GOT to be one of the most OBJECTIVE rules I've ever heard of in figure skating. Maximum time on SP 2:40. We are all really in trouble here if we, as fans of the sport, are willing to criticize that sytem for NOT implementing mandatory deductions on things that ARE somewhat subjective - i.e. who's spirals are better than who's, or HOW successfully or over-rotated or under-rotated a jump is or isn't landed.

I know I must have people all over the world puking by now, but holy cow!! If we can't agree it's appropriate to abide by a very simple and straight forward rule about a specific time limit on a program, then how in the world will "fair judging" in this sport ever have a prayer of being better defined?

DG
 

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Doggygirl.........I agree, I agree, but I think the point isn't whether or not a rule has been breached, but why now all of a sudden, is a skater being penalized for it. I have seen many skaters do the exact same thing that Michelle apparantly did, but she is the first in forty years that I have ever seen penalized for it......42
 

tharrtell

TriGirl Rinkside
On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
DG, I totally understand what you are saying, and I AGREE. However, when rules aren't enforced, why take 'em seriously?


Phil Hersh article (so take that for what it's worth!) -

"Event referee Jan Hoffmann of Germany told the Tribune he pointed out the elapsed time to the panel. Exceeding 2:40 calls for a .1 deduction in both technical merit and presentation scores, but the rule rarely is invoked at elite level."

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8287695.htm
 

eliza88

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 6, 2003
I watched the Ladies SP on CBC and I would have placed Michelle's beautiful and very well skated program in 2nd. Sasha a well deserved 1st, Arakawa 3rd, then Ando (Sebesteyn also had a great skate and more choreography than Ando). Michelle wasn't on fire like Sasha was, but she was poised, passionate, seamless, etc. She was all things Kwan.

Michelle and her fans should be proud of her skate regardless of how the judges scored it. (I am so proud of myself for taking this calmly!!)

eliza88
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
One's person's overview of the Ladies SP

Sasha commanded the ice that afternoon. Her skate was as perfect as it could get.. Shiyuka<, while good, was not up to the brilliance that she showed in the Qaulife. Miki Ando, shows so much promise it is scarz. I thought she would just be another Onda but no!. She is most graceful and there is a budding style.

La Kwan skater very well, although not with her usual fire. She also ended way after the music stopped . Was she tryng to say
something? Hope she finallz gets the Technical message.

Irina needs some serious thinking if she wants to make a comeback. The skate is without anz of her passion and it borders on being lacksadaisical She#ll need a lot of work before Moscow.

Elena S. did not skate the SP with the enthusiasm she had in the Qualie. She put herself out of it.

Sebaszen was aain marvelous and imo, ahead of La Kwan.

The previous group showed the Canadian gals holding their. Both Rochette and Robinson did fine work. Biggest surprise for me, was Pozkio. I had never seen her before but her Qualif and SP showed star quality. Should have been ahead of Irina Carolina Kostner finally, for me anyway, got me believing her. She was quite exceptional and should have been in the top group.

Fumie, Vikka and Jenny were not at their best. Meier, Hegel and Cálvey all did a fine job. Many other skaters previously did fine work.

It was not boring sitting through all this.

Who will take the Gold? My bet is Sasha unless she melts.

Joe
 
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Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Joesitz said:
One's person's overview of the Ladies SP

Biggest surprise for me, was Pozkio. I had never seen her before but her Qualif and SP showed star quality. Should have been ahead of Irina Carolina Kostner finally, for me anyway, got me believing her. She was quite exceptional and should have been in the top group.
Joe

I could not agree more with you! Susanna Poykio did not get in SP what she deserved!!! She should have been at least among top ten.

Marjaana
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Michelle and her fans should be proud of her skate regardless of how the judges scored it. (I am so proud of myself for taking this calmly!!)

Yes. I am.
I was listening EuroSport at the competetion. They were suprised at the time Arakawa placed ahead of Kwan, Make no mistake I love Arakawa's skating. And I heard MK and RA talked to each other when she stepped off the ice, both saying they were happy with what she just done. Then saw the marks and late the placement I was mad then. Now knowing Kwan placed lower as 4th place because of the time deduction. I feel so much better now.

As far as she skated best and happy, I'm happy for her. Girl just let go, skate best you can.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Jaana - Poykio was robbed in the Qaualy even before the SP. She should have been in top 6.

mzheng - I think MK is satified with her skate. It ws good but not her best. But the message is clear - Technical must be raised.

Joe
 

tharrtell

TriGirl Rinkside
On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Joesitz said:
mzheng - I think MK is satified with her skate. It ws good but not her best. But the message is clear - Technical must be raised.

Joe, help me here. I agree that her tech needs to be raised. The 3/3 is becoming like the men's quad, BUT Sasha's tech is no better (maybe just slightly due to better spins, but she's not going to do a loop in the LP). How is something that's good for Cohen not sufficient for Kwan?

tharrtell - still trying to 'get it'
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
tharrtell said:
Joe, help me here. I agree that her tech needs to be raised. The 3/3 is becoming like the men's quad, BUT Sasha's tech is no better (maybe just slightly due to better spins, but she's not going to do a loop in the LP). How is something that's good for Cohen not sufficient for Kwan?

tharrtell - still trying to 'get it'

Joe and Tharrtell, don't know what message is sent. But definitely a message. I read some where the Ref said he told Judge panel the time violation, but actually in history the deduction never applied at elite level. So there is definitely the msg.

MICHELLE GO FOR IT, SKATE YOUR HEART OUT!!!!!
 

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I just finished watching the Ladies' short program, and after watching it twice, I would have placed them:

1. Sasha
2. Michelle
3. Arakawa
4. Sebestyen
5. Ando

Triple jumps aside, non of the other ladies come to close to the overall package that Sasha and Michelle have......Arakawa is wonderful, but she doesn't have the grace and extension that Fumie has........maybe in time........of course, I haven't seen the long program yet..........:) 42
 

kareliz

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Thank goodness for this forum. None of my friends understand. It is great to have a place to vent, and to read different views.

ITA with posters who say, if we're going to enforce deductions (ie time deduction), why not ALL of them? Why no deductions for underrotated jumps and spins?

For the short I'd have Sasha 1st even with the flutz, for pure joy, energy, great line, spins, etc. I am not her fan and it's hard for me to say this when Michele was clean, but I think it's fair. But to be REALLY fair, let's deduct say .2 or .3 for the flutz, as has been done to MK and SH at Worlds when it was convenient.

MK is my all time fave, but in an effor to be fair, I'll put her second in the short, even with the time dedection. (ITA agreement with those who say - hmmm - why is this being done now, when it has always been ignored. I think it stinks big time.)

SA should have been 3rd. I love the height of her jumps, and she has come a long way with presentation, but has a LONG way to go, esp. in the short. Also where were the decutions for her technical flaws?

I was so mad after that program, my husband started saying maybe I shouldn't watch skating anymore if it upset me so much. Still trying to calm down.
 
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