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Thread: Ladies Short - Notes & Results

  1. #136
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    Just a thought.........if a skater can't hear the music as to judge the end, perhaps the timekeeper can't either. Does he or she never make a mistake? 42

  2. #137
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    not having been there, who knows. But I'm surprised that MK was placed below the 2 japanese girls who had serious 3-3 combos, but then sasha was placed ahead of them w/just a 3-2 combo.
    .............I was wondering that myself..........42

  3. #138
    GOLDEN DREAMS RealtorGal's Avatar
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    Twinnie, your posts are always SO insightful and objective. I'm proud to be your TWIN!

  4. #139
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    not having been there, who knows. But I'm surprised that MK was placed below the 2 japanese girls who had serious 3-3 combos, but then sasha was placed ahead of them w/just a 3-2 combo.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    .............I was wondering that myself..........42

    [/B][/QUOTE]

    The short program is not all about the jumps. There are 8 elements and only 3(4 with combo) are jumps. Sasha excels in the 5 other areas. Her layback, spirals, camel and combo spin are about as good as it gets and difficult . Her footwork has improved greatly.
    This is why she's always been a great short program skater as it highlights what Sasha does best. It is in the LP when she's got to do more jumps where she has problems.

    Under COP Sasha was scoring much higher than everybody else in the SP even when they had a 3/3. The judges know this and will place her higher based on the other elements she did. Also her presentation is 1st rate.

    While Michelle is good at all the elements the only other non jumping element that she excels at are the spirals. That isn't enough to overcome a 3/3 technically unless she does more difficult spins. The jumpers are much better at presentation than they used to be so her edge isn't as big. Sasha can match her presentation wise now. Like Rgirl said the pack has caught up to her.

  5. #140
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Show...

    My understanding is that the time keeping has nothing to do with the start and finish of the music - it has everything to do with the start and finish of the SKATE. I do not claim to know the details of what exactly constitutes the official "start" of the skate and "end" of the skate. I assume it is probably the point where the skates start moving, and the point where the skates stop moving.

    If my assumptions above are correct, then it would only be natural that the taped music (which under these assumptions has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual timed skate) is a "marker" on the time rule for the skater. How many times have we seen skaters have wonky endings? (not exactly with the music - either before or after) for whatever reason? I know I've seen that happen a lot, and this is the first year in my life (but many years as a fan) I've followed things anywhere NEAR this closely, or even knew that there was a specific rule about the time. But now that I think about it, it makes total sense to me. The short is 2:40 and the long is 4:30 (or whatever the exact time is) that there would be a rule involving penalties if you go too long. I also wonder if there is a minimum time involved which if so, would make perfect sense to me.

    I have to think the music cuts are timed to perfection, hopefully with a bit of room for error. With a maximum 2:40 time limit and a penalty for exceeding that, I would suspect nobody would want a music cut that is EXACTLY 2:40 from the first move of the blade (assuming that is the official time start) to the end of the final pose. Let's just say you timed a piece at 2:35 just to leave a little wiggle room if you're tired at the end of your program. Given that planning, when you HEAR the music you know if you are ahead or behind your own marker. If you can't hear the music in the last 10 or 15 seconds, how the heck do you know?

    I have no idea if that's what happened. Watching it on tape might not tell us what happened, even with stop watches in hand. I'm just assuming that watching a video feed of the actual could create a two second discrepancy all by itself, but I have no basis in reality for knowing that.

    I feel the same way about this that I did when a percentage of figure skating fans reacted to Sandhu's win over Plushy at the GP final. Plushy was penalized for including an unallowed jump combo, the rules are the rules. At this elite level, EVERY skater should know every rule, and follow it. I think "assuming" you will be forgiven by the judges for breaking a "technicality rule" is faulty logic. I am not saying by any stretch that either Michelle or Plush fly in the face of the rules with intent or disregard. I suspect the opposite is true, and that they personally don't complain (I've never heard it anyway) if they are marked down when the reason is a clear violation of the rules of the game. It's the fans that complain.

    We CANNOT HAVE IT both ways. If we sit out here and do the best we can to SHOUT when we feel the rules are not applied correctly, then we need to be equally willing to shut up when they are, regardless of the outcome for our personal favorites.

    Life is not always fair, and if ANYONE knows that, it's these skaters. The only way to make it more fair in my opinon is to get closer to a following of the rules, not farther away.

    Just gotta say RGirl that I always love reading your posts. You are really talented in the writing department!

    DG

  6. #141
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    MK

    Okay, I've kept my mouth shut for a while, but, I think it's time to speak. I've ALWAYS thought MK was WAAAAY overrated, and I'll say it again--- "WAY OVERRATED". I think we can reflect upon the 13 year old who "won the hearts of the world" while going thru one of the worst scandals in FS history-Tonya and Nancy.
    Some of her programs throughout the years were great, but, more often than not, they were all programs that were the SAME.
    Most skaters would have been penalized over the years for rehashing the SAME thing, but, I think that MK along with her fans have taken this fact for granted, and NOW that reality has caught up with MK, there's suddenly controversy.
    There have been numerous competitions in which I thought that other skaters from other countries had more interesting and more technical programs that MK, but, were not held up. I think if she wants to be the best, this may be the time to reflect and make the necessary changes, and to stop expecting the judges to "give" her the championship. So necessary changes: different spins, rather than the one spin that she does, over and over and over again;more speed, different footwork,different spirals, and of course, different cheoreography, and truly "feeling the music", not the fake smile that she always plasters on her face, and for this example of "feeling the music", she might want to refer to Alexei Yagudin's programs, from any of his competitive years, or even Plushy. She might even want to refer to Yagudin as someone who constantly re-invented himself...and thus, was/is one of the best male skaters in the modern era. Okay, I'm off my soap box. I really don't care who wins, but, folks, let's be realistic, and not have some fantasy of what isn't.
    As far as the deductions, well, even if she got the points back, she'd still lag behind the three other women, so, it's a moot point. There's no reason for an unnecessary controversy.

  7. #142
    Kwan's vodka dealer VIETgrlTerifa's Avatar
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    As far as the deductions, well, even if she got the points back, she'd still lag behind the three other women, so, it's a moot point.
    And how do you know this?

  8. #143
    Rinkside
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    MK response

    I see that you still haven't much to comment on everything else.
    MK would still be starting at 5.2 instead of 5.1---way behind the other 3 women.

  9. #144
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    Rgirl,
    I totally agree with your analysis of the situation. The judges are probably looking at different things since they've implemented COP. MK didn't choreograph her programs for the COP b/c her Tosca program at Nationals was extremely empty compared to Sasha's Swan Lake program. These judges are getting saavy at looking at more than jumps.

  10. #145
    Kwan's vodka dealer VIETgrlTerifa's Avatar
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    Re: MK response

    Originally posted by preztobe
    I see that you still haven't much to comment on everything else.
    MK would still be starting at 5.2 instead of 5.1---way behind the other 3 women.
    That's one judge...many think she could be second if they added the deductions. Anyways, many are arguing that it's the principle of the deductions...even if it doesn't improve her rank, the fact that she might have gotten a mandatory deduction that might have been unwarranted is what the problem is.

    The reason why I didn't comment on anything else was because I have no problem with the rest of your first post because that was all your personal opinion.

  11. #146
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    I understand the time limit rule, but I must say, and I have over 15 years worth of video tapes on figure skating, plus having watched skating events both live and on tape since the early 60's, that I can't recall an elite skater being called on a "time issue"........it stands out and calls for question and reflection.

    As far as I have read, Michelle was not the one who complained about the time sanction against her skating.......

    And as for skater's "knowing the rules" than to program a performance so close to the time limit, (here I go with another analogy), pro football players know better than to "clip", but it still happens, basketball players know better than to "goal tend", but it still happens.........I could go on and on....

    I personally hope that the time limit sanction stands.....it would only cause bad feelings and more comments of "sour grapes" and "baby" would be slung. 42

  12. #147
    TriGirl Rinkside
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    Two things:

    (1) I think my take on the whole thing is the same as Show's. Yeah, the time limit is a rule. As a rule, it should be help up. However, I've been watching skating since the early 80's (granted I was quite young at that time and wouldn't necessarily remember), and I do not remember someone being docked for this. I doubt Michelle is the first skater who has gone over 2:40. Why are they suddenly taking the deduction? Historical judging has set a precedent so I can see that skaters/coaches/choreographers etc. wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about that particular rule. If people were worried about ending 2 seconds beyond the music (not much time at all), I can't see anyone having a cut of music more than 2:30 just to be safe. Like I said earlier, it's a rule and should be followed, but there should be consistency.

    Originally posted by soogar
    MK didn't choreograph her programs for the COP b/c her Tosca program at Nationals was extremely empty compared to Sasha's Swan Lake program.
    (2) I don't mean to pick on Sasha here, but I just know more about her program than the other ladies. Anyway, for Nationals, Sasha took out a lot of the difficulty that had been included for the CoP. From her journal before Worlds, it appeared as though she had watered it down even more. She's not even doing all the triples (axel excluded, of course) the other ladies are.

    I adore good footwork and a well balanced program, but to say that Michelle has the only empty program is just not true.

  13. #148
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    So Bizarre

    Now, I don't know if being docked for time is a good thing in figure skating. I think a time range would be more fesible, with exceptions. That time frame would probably create better music cuts. Anyway, time and figure skating is subjective by nature.

    On another subject, some folk think MK is way "overrated." Well, everyone at the top becomes overrated. We become familiar we their style, presentation, or talent. She dominated the mid and late 90's. Kwan is pioneer in her sport. I don't like every performance or programs by her, but darn it she's consititently good. I am not impressed by skaters that bomb, fail apart, and come back in maybe two competitions out of twelve. A real champ rises to the challenge, despite the obstacles.If MK skated a clean program, then she sould be reward and not docked over this bizarre time protocol. There is something very weird about this whole issue that will over shadow the whole ladies competition. This drama is not fair for SC or the japanese ladies; and I know MK is not trying to portray a poor loser. I think it is unfortunate for MK because despite "haters" she is a world class skater, period. She goes out and skates her best 99.8% of the time. This world championship will prove that MK can over come any obstacle, ones imagined and real.

  14. #149
    Hopeless fan Doggygirl's Avatar
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    I'm REALLY dying here...

    My comments are NOT about Michelle nor my completely subjective opinons about her skating.

    HOW IS A TIME LIMIT SUBJECTIVE?????? To me, that's GOT to be one of the most OBJECTIVE rules I've ever heard of in figure skating. Maximum time on SP 2:40. We are all really in trouble here if we, as fans of the sport, are willing to criticize that sytem for NOT implementing mandatory deductions on things that ARE somewhat subjective - i.e. who's spirals are better than who's, or HOW successfully or over-rotated or under-rotated a jump is or isn't landed.

    I know I must have people all over the world puking by now, but holy cow!! If we can't agree it's appropriate to abide by a very simple and straight forward rule about a specific time limit on a program, then how in the world will "fair judging" in this sport ever have a prayer of being better defined?

    DG

  15. #150
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    Doggygirl.........I agree, I agree, but I think the point isn't whether or not a rule has been breached, but why now all of a sudden, is a skater being penalized for it. I have seen many skaters do the exact same thing that Michelle apparantly did, but she is the first in forty years that I have ever seen penalized for it......42

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