No worries. I'm not always clear in my meaning
No worries. I'm not always clear in my meaning
this is CRAZY!!! michelle in fourth. what the f*&k! i just cannot believe that. i've heard that there should have been deductions for arakawa and ando that obviously were not taken while kwan skated very well...clean and inspired. her marks had better be investigated. this is unacceptable. now she'll be lucky to get a bronze. i just can't believe that this could potentially be the worst worlds finish for her in almost 10 years!
Maybe MK's skating position had something to do with her placement. If she is placed between both girls who did harder combo's then her easier combo is seen as weaker. Whereas Sasha is last, so her presentation, which would be better than the jumping beans, overcomes the technical aspect.
Wonder how MK would do if she was skating last. Maybe she would be in a higher spot.
Have you seen the programs (live)? Just curious!Originally posted by gracefulswan
this is CRAZY!!! michelle in fourth. what the f*&k! i just cannot believe that. i've heard that there should have been deductions for arakawa and ando that obviously were not taken while kwan skated very well...clean and inspired. her marks had better be investigated. this is unacceptable. now she'll be lucky to get a bronze. i just can't believe that this could potentially be the worst worlds finish for her in almost 10 years!
have the short programs been shown in the usa yet?
A flutz is a flutz - regardless of the severity it is an incorrect Lutz. Either your do the Lutz correctly or you don't - end of story.[i]BTW, Sasha's flutz is FAR more severe than Kwan's could ever be. [/B]
If Michelle received a .1 time deduction, as reported by Euterpe, that could account for why she ended up behind Shizuka and Miki, while Sasha did not. In that case there is no reason to speculate about whether the judges are trying to send anyone a "message."
For most programs, I do not understand how they can go over the time limit, unless the skater gets way behind her music. The music itself, after all, is edited pretty precisely. But The Feeling Begins has that section after the actual music stops, where there is just the sound of wind blowing, or something like that, while Michelle poses and slowly breaks into a radiant smile.At Nationals Dick Button commented that since the audience can't hear the music at this point, it makes it seem like Michelle finishes behind her music, which detracts from the effectiveness of the program. So maybe this turned out to be a costly choreographic error, even though it is a heart-grabbing conclusion to that marvelous program.
Congratulations to Sasha! She must have skated her heart out. I can't wait to see it for myself.
Mathman
Last edited by Mathman; 03-26-2004 at 02:01 PM.
Many of the posters on this and other boards have seen the skating via live stream on RAI. Those with recorders have replayed jumps in slo-mo and have confirmed that both Arakawa and Ando pre-rotated and/or underrotated their 3/3s.
It seems that cheated 3/3s are worth more than fully rotated 3/2s, and it's OK to cut mandatory rotations from spins without getting deductions.
Meanwhile, deducting for flutz applies only to Kwan, and not to Cohen.
Last edited by euterpe; 03-26-2004 at 01:35 PM.
I hope Michelle is really pissed! LOL! She has been low balled before, especially in the short program. Hopefully, she'll pull a vintage Kwan in the long (no matter where she ends up). I seem to be the only one that feels this could actually be a positive thing for Michelle. First of all, the Olympics are two years away and she has plenty of time to make a final decision and to prepare. And, she now has real motivation. She must push herself harder than ever (similar to the change from 95 to 96) if she wants a shot in Italy. But, we should probably wait and see what happens in the long. Arakawa, Ando and Cohen are not models of consistency. Yet, having said that, I'd hate to seem falter now. They've been magnificent so far. Whatever happens, I hope Michelle can finish this competition with a performance she can be proud of (and that will push her to work her tail off for 2004-2005). She's still the best in my book.
You can't entirely judge from seeing something on video feed or tv. Yes, you can evaluate the jumps, but there's more to marks than just jumps. It is very different when you see it live. I know I was blown away by Irina's speed the first time I saw her live. Michelle may not have received a deduction for a flutz.Originally posted by euterpe
Many of the posters on this and other boards have seen the skating via live stream on RAI. Those with recorders have replayed jumps in slo-mo and have confirmed that both Arakawa and Ando pre-rotated and/or underrotated their 3/3s.
It seems that cheated 3/3s are worth more than fully rotated 3/2s, and it's OK to cut mandatory rotations from spins without getting deductions.
Meanwhile, deducting for flutz applies only to Kwan, and not to Cohen.
Seems like pretty poor sports to me - when Kwan doesn't win everyone screams foul play.
I do think it's awfully picking to penalize her for going 2 seconds over.
Having watched live stream ... it would appear that not only were cheated 3/3's judged higher than clean 3/2's, but also ahead of a clean 3/3'. Kostners combo was huge and clean.
You cannot argue that a clean Kostner is on the same level as a flawed Arakawa. No way! An Arakawa with no 3/3 or a fall is better than a Kostner with a 3/3, so that argument ends there.Originally posted by csmith1
Having watched live stream ... it would appear that not only were cheated 3/3's judged higher than clean 3/2's, but also ahead of a clean 3/3'. Kostners combo was huge and clean.
There's more to judging than jumps, and the simple fact is that MK isn't leagues better than everyone else, like she was in 1998. She simply can't skate cleanly (or with few flaws) and win like she used to. There were four great performances today - Michelle was judged 4th - I don't see the problem.
You all are disecting only the jumps when that is such a small part of the overall program. Granted they are a VERY important part but there are many more elements to judge! I haven't seen one person talk about speed, spin positions, spiral positions, ice coverage, footwork - only the jumps. We know Michelle's spirals are good, but what about everything else?
I haven't seen the performances, but from what I've read everyone in the top 4 skated great. It isn't foul play that Michelle is in 4th.
She definitely needs to bring new things to the table. I don't think I've seen anything new out of her since 1998, and as much as I love her, it's getting boring! Her spiral sequence is just boring now because it's like "been there, done that". She needs harder technical elements and she needs greater speed. She is working on them, but really needs to kick it in if she wants to go to the Olympics in 2006 and she needs some new spirals. This will be the biggest wake up call of her career.
Michelle is the best female figure skater ever (IMO), but you can't stand still for 6 years and expect no one to pass you up, especially when you are the one everyone is gunning for. That is exactly what has happened! It started with Irina in 2000 and spread to Sarah in 2002 and now there are three other women that are capable of beating an error free Kwan. It's only going to get worse by 2006 if she doesn't make changes.
Last edited by gellio; 03-26-2004 at 02:05 PM.
It looks like the US might be protesting the deduction for time. If .1 were added back to Michelle's scores for both tech and presentation, would that change the placement? Not sure how to figure that out especially since I don't know which scores actually ended up counting or which judge gave which score. More Sekret Judging.
DG
With respect, you misunderstood my point. I was not defending MK. This is the "technical" program, and under COP the results would likely have been quite different. MK (3/2) would have been lower, as would Arakawa and Ando (cheated combos.) I agree it isn't all in the jumps .. but they are a significant factor in the short program.
It's good and bad maybe. If Michelle skates awesome and pull up she may bother coming back. If not I kind of think this will be it. She's been training up in the hills and I think she's a little lonely and maybe should move on to other things that will make her happy. At least when you read articles she sounds lonely being up there in the hill away from her family.Originally posted by BronzeisGolden
I hope Michelle is really pissed! LOL! She has been low balled before, especially in the short program. Hopefully, she'll pull a vintage Kwan in the long (no matter where she ends up). I seem to be the only one that feels this could actually be a positive thing for Michelle. First of all, the Olympics are two years away and she has plenty of time to make a final decision and to prepare. And, she now has real motivation. She must push herself harder than ever (similar to the change from 95 to 96) if she wants a shot in Italy. But, we should probably wait and see what happens in the long. Arakawa, Ando and Cohen are not models of consistency. Yet, having said that, I'd hate to seem falter now. They've been magnificent so far. Whatever happens, I hope Michelle can finish this competition with a performance she can be proud of (and that will push her to work her tail off for 2004-2005). She's still the best in my book.
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