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Thread: Ladies Short - Notes & Results

  1. #121
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    SURYA & YUKA, Puh-leeeeez! Surya never could skate, all she ever had was jumps, sloppy crossovers, jumps, gaudy costumes, jumps, fake hair, and jumps. Yuka is a skater's skater.

  2. #122
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    Originally posted by tharrtell

    However, I'm not sure she believes that.
    .......
    Why would she consider Torino otherwise? Yes, I know she says she loves to compete, and I believe that; however, elite skating is such a huge committment that I cannot see sticking out two long years if the gold wasn't really important to her. That said, I would be so trilled if she were able to do it.
    You made valid point. But I don't think she will or need destroy her boday to get that OGM at this stage of her career. She made the comment about Irina the other day 'Health is more important than triple lutz'. And in a earlier interview she said it need like more than one year for her to get a consistant 3/3 into the program without hurting herself. The question is if it is still worth while for her? Only she knows.

  3. #123
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    The points taken off by the ref because Michelle continued skating after the music ends is an issue to contest because the musical part of the piece may end but there are a few seconds of sound effects. If the ref was not aware of that then MK was penalized unfairly and should have her scores adjusted. How that can be proved after the fact will be difficult. I guess, and I can only guess not having seen any of this yet, is that Arakawa might have been given a gift by not having deductions for an under rotated 3/3 and one missing revolution on her camel spin. I would think she would neither be ahead of Ando or Kwan. It did also cross my mind, as others posters have pointed out, that Michelle's lack of participation in Grand Prix events might engender bias. Who knows. Well, you can't win 'em all. I just wish Rosaleen and Joe would comment on the results. Joe where the hell are you????
    Last edited by yelyoh; 03-26-2004 at 05:09 PM.

  4. #124
    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    My thoughts on the time deduction..

    My understanding Yelyoh is that the deduction has nothing to do with ending "on" the music. It is a time deduction where the maximum allowed time for the skate is 2:40 and the timekeeper clocked the program at 2:42. There is a mandatory deduction for that. My only comment about the recorded music is that you can't hear it at the end (and I imagine Michelle can't either). Depending on how close the tape is to the 2:40 maximum length, I could see missing the ending (stopping the skating) two seconds past the end of music when you can't hear it. That's just speculation on my part of course.

    So in my mind, this does not equate to the timekeeper giving Michelle the shaft. If in fact her routine was properly timed, and was 2:42 then the deduction is appropriate.

    Much of the lively debate (which I am enjoying BTW) on this thread has to do with complaints that rules are being inconsistently applied. That is a fair argument assuming it's true. BUT...I do NOT believe the solution to the questionable judging lies in logic such as "well, if Skater A didn't get a mandatory deduction, then Skater B shouldn't have gotten a mandatory deduction." I personally want to see ALL the rules being applied appropriately. But hollering for LESS application of the rules can't possibly make things better.

    Just my two cents...

    DG
    Last edited by Doggygirl; 03-26-2004 at 05:41 PM.

  5. #125
    GOLDEN DREAMS RealtorGal's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Originally posted by Tonichelle
    not one to scream conspiracy... but it looks like north American skaters are really getting docked for good skates... I know I may still sound "bitter" from the Pairs SPs... but really I mean... from what I've been reading some of these scores are just weird!
    Last time I checked, Sasha was North American.

    I just read the last 5 pages of this thread and it's just a bit depressing to read so many "Michelle wuz robbed" posts--mainly from posters who have not even SEEN the programs yet and who are relying on 2nd or 3rd hand reports on which to base their gripes.

    Come on now... Michelle was POSSIBLY gifted 3rd place for a 4 triple program in the qualifying round and she was not in the SP. (I say possibly because I have not SEEN the programs and prefer not to make definitive judgements on programs I have not seen.)

    Leave the sour grapes at home and enjoy the competition!
    Last edited by RealtorGal; 03-26-2004 at 06:13 PM.

  6. #126
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    ETA I have seen the final flight of skaters

    I just saw Arakawa's 3/3. It was both sloppy and cheated. It certainly didn't warrant extra credit IMO.

    I think most fans just want consistancy and fairness in judging. If Michelle deserved a deduction, that's fine. Then deduct for Arakawa's, Cohen's, and whoever's mistakes too. That's not happening. After all this upheaval and endless talk, figure skating judging hasn't improved one iota. I'm disgusted with it.
    Last edited by SusanBeth; 03-26-2004 at 06:16 PM.

  7. #127
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    I agree with Realtorgal. Sometimes you get a gift and other times you don't. Besides, I'm sure Michelle isn't focused on this issue any longer. She did her best and got dealt a bum hand this time. She's probably looking ahead to the long program. And, I have a feeling she is going to attack with a ferocity we've never seen from her. She's been backed into many corners, but never one quite like this. I'm hoping she'll pull a Shen & Zhou, even if she doesn't win.
    Last edited by BronzeisGolden; 03-26-2004 at 06:27 PM.

  8. #128
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    Michelle really was robbed

    Let me just start by saying that I have seen the programs, via the wonders of high speed technology. Her program was SOLID, jumps were clean, edges great, speed great, etc. I will say that I could understand if Sasha was placed 1st and Michelle 2nd...don't agree, but the two are fairly comperable to some extent and then it becomes a matter of preferance. But to think that she was marked down to a 5.1 for technical merit (even excluding the .1 for time, then it was a 5.2). Someone needs to tell me how you come up with .8 worth of deductions (two falls worth)??? I mean even if you are giving credit for a 3/2 vs. a 3/3...it just doesn't make sense.

    I'll I can say is it is just more fodder for the critics of figure skating. But what would World's be without a skating contreversy. I heard the ISU is majorily lossing money, maybe this is there way of stirring up ratings!

  9. #129
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    This whole off the timing at the end of MK's SP is VERY interesting.. This is the same SP she has used the last two years.. SO what did I do? I watched my recorded SP from the Nationals.. And YES, she is off the timing of the end of the program.. MK even said herself it was the first time she has done this SP since last years Worlds in competition (when she won!). SO!!! What I think is MK should have done a few GPF competitions this year to brush up on her SP so this problem would NOT occur at the most important figure skating event of the year.. Thats just my two cents...What do you think???..... Peace

  10. #130
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    Here is some one posted at FSU:

    "
    I just talked to somone in the inner loop at worlds. I asked them about the Whole Michelle Deal, and they said the RUS judges and JPN Judge are holding Michelle Down in a block Judge.( they don;t want her to medal. They also said that Michelle's Coach talked to the RUS and UKR Judges on the event and they said they took the .2 for michelle being over time, and he asked what about the Cheats on the JPN skaters and they said they did not see them. This all seems very Strange.
    "

    I'll remain my judgement until I see the programs. But from all the report over the web, and even from some non-Kwan fan, and conjunction to this post. It dose looks fish to me. Rus judgers hold up Japanese lady in exchange of JPN judgers hold up Rus. How could you adjust Elena S.'s presetation mark, with a botched combo and a fall at flip, without jump back up, except the charming attitude (I doubt with a fall she can still remain charming) what warrent her 5.7 and 5.8 for presentation? with those choppin stroking non excistant spiral, etc. Not to mention Irina's (I applaud for her brave come back) but judge should be faire to other deserved skaters, they just worked the same hard.

  11. #131
    Kwan's vodka dealer VIETgrlTerifa's Avatar
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    Mzheng, that post is nonsense. There was no Russian or Ukrainian judge for the ladies SP.

  12. #132
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    Re: Michelle really was robbed

    Originally posted by jlk75
    Let me just start by saying that I have seen the programs, via the wonders of high speed technology. Her program was SOLID, jumps were clean, edges great, speed great, etc. I will say that I could understand if Sasha was placed 1st and Michelle 2nd...don't agree, but the two are fairly comperable to some extent and then it becomes a matter of preferance. But to think that she was marked down to a 5.1 for technical merit (even excluding the .1 for time, then it was a 5.2). Someone needs to tell me how you come up with .8 worth of deductions (two falls worth)??? I mean even if you are giving credit for a 3/2 vs. a 3/3...it just doesn't make sense.

    I'll I can say is it is just more fodder for the critics of figure skating. But what would World's be without a skating contreversy. I heard the ISU is majorily lossing money, maybe this is there way of stirring up ratings!
    Well, first of all - you cannot really judge speed and ice coverage through any form of media. You must see it live to accurately judge it. Speed does not come across well on TV.

    Second of all - the 5.1 is realitive to other skaters - not a 6.0. If the judge who gave Michelle the 5.1 (5.2 really) gave Sasha the 5.6, then nothing is out of line.

    Third of all - deductions aren't based on a 6.0, they are based on the judges base mark. That is why we see technical scores ranging from 5.1 to 5.7.

    If I am a judge and Sasha comes out and blows the roof off the place, but I give her a 5.7 because there are more skaters to follow, then Kwan comes out and gives a good performance, but not as good as Sasha, I might give her a 5.4.

    If you were judging and the same events happened, you might have given Sasha a 5.9 and Michelle a 5.6.

    Either way, we both judged Sasha to be .3 better than Michelle.

    Marks are place holders, nothing more. People often make too much out of marks. For all we know, the judge who gave Michelle the 5.2 could have given Sasha a 5.9 - who knows.

    As long as the placements are right, I ignore the marks - and 9 times out of 10, I think the placements are right on.

  13. #133
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    Originally posted by mzheng
    Here is some one posted at FSU:

    "
    I just talked to somone in the inner loop at worlds. I asked them about the Whole Michelle Deal, and they said the RUS judges and JPN Judge are holding Michelle Down in a block Judge.( they don;t want her to medal. They also said that Michelle's Coach talked to the RUS and UKR Judges on the event and they said they took the .2 for michelle being over time, and he asked what about the Cheats on the JPN skaters and they said they did not see them. This all seems very Strange.
    "

    I'll remain my judgement until I see the programs. But from all the report over the web, and even from some non-Kwan fan, and conjunction to this post. It dose looks fish to me. Rus judgers hold up Japanese lady in exchange of JPN judgers hold up Rus. How could you adjust Elena S.'s presetation mark, with a botched combo and a fall at flip, without jump back up, except the charming attitude (I doubt with a fall she can still remain charming) what warrent her 5.7 and 5.8 for presentation? with those choppin stroking non excistant spiral, etc. Not to mention Irina's (I applaud for her brave come back) but judge should be faire to other deserved skaters, they just worked the same hard.
    Since you and none of us know the source of this statement and it's accuracy, I have to discard it. However, I would conclude that if there were block judging (on the part of the Japanese and Russians) going on against Michelle, Sasha would also be a victim. Furthermore, we wouldn't have seen the dismal results the Russian women got to day. That theory doesn't add up.

  14. #134
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    This is link to FSU:

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...threadid=13151

    OK, I got back check the thread, there were posters said there is no Rus or UKR judges at penal. As for to whom Rafael had talked to, I might find a source to confirm 3 weeks after the worlds. If I didn't forget.

  15. #135
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    Re: Gellio...

    Originally posted by Doggygirl
    I enjoyed reading your post. You put into words better than I ever could a concern I've had about MK for awhile now. It used to be that more often than not, she was so far ahead of the pack that so long as she skated clean, medals were usually in the bag. I have always loved her skating and still do, but it just seems she is now part of the pack which sure changes the competitive environment. (I fully realize she did not skate clean in the QR)

    I don't think she's rested on her laurels in terms of competitive fire, training, etc. I also understand that years of elite level competition take a toll on the body, and to stay in the game as long as she has you have to be careful not to overtax the knees, hips, etc.

    While I'm very sure Michelle and her team keep close tabs always with regard to what other skaters are doing, I suspect that isn't quite the same as being there. Showing your program next to the others and letting the judges give feedback through scores and discussions. I wonder if she will regret her decisions about only minimally competing throughout the year. I just wonder if she fully understood how the pack was catching up.

    Oh well. One thing is for sure - I can't wait to actually see the performances and decide for myself.
    Great post, Doggygirl, as well as those by Gelio, Mathman, Brenlynn, Realtorgal, Bronzeisgolden, and others.

    Not being there nor having seen the ladies short on TV, I can't comment on the judging. But I think it was inevitable that other skaters would catch up to Michelle at least in the judges' eyes. Michelle will always be special to her fans--and as others have said, this result could put the dragon fire in Michelle for the finals.

    But I think if we look at things beyond the assumption of poor judging, which may very well be the case, there are some things we can see in retrospect that make this result not as surprising as it seems at first glance.

    1. Artunian coaching Michelle: This is the first time since August, 2000 that Michelle has had a *real* coach. Although I think Artunian will help Michelle increase her technical abilities, they've only worked together daily since late November. That's a huge difference from her relationship with Scott Williams and even though Artunian is working on Michelle's jump technique, there's still a learning curve. Michelle's jumps were always amazingly secure and consistent, but they've never been high or powerful. While she's in this transition period of learning, her jumps as well as other aspects of her skating may look less secure.

    2. As others have said, Michelle has been out of the international competitive scene since the Olympics. I don't think it's been that important that Michelle see what other skaters are doing since at the GP events over the last two years, the competition hasn't been anything Kwan couldn't have beaten, with a couple of exceptions. What I think Michelle did miss by not doing the GP events was (a) being in front of international judges and getting regular feedback, and (b) competing under the COP. Whether or not it's right, I think the COP has affected the way judges evaluate programs under the OBO. I think they're putting more emphasis on difficult jump entrances, ie, turning 3s, FW, etc.; spins; FW; transitions; quality of choreography; and other elements listed in the program components. We can assume Michelle would have done very well under the COP, but since the judges never evaluated her under that system, we, and she, don't know.

    One thing we did see with Shizuka and Sasha is that they both changed their programs to gain maximum points out of the COP. They each demonstrated that they could do programs with a higher level of difficulty and also improve elements that had been the same for years. For example, Shizuka's spiral sequence used to be very weak. She had poor positions and didn't hold them long at all. With the pressure of the COP, Shizuka and Callaghan improved her spiral sequence so that it was the only one, IIRC, to receive a Level 3 ranking. It's these kinds of experiences and opportunities that Michelle has missed by not doing the GP series.

    OTOH, if MK had done the GP series over the last two years, she might have sustained an overuse injury or become burned out. Michelle did what she felt was best for her and perhaps in the long run, it will be. I'm hardly the first to say we never learn much about ourselves from our successes; we learn most from our problems. However Michelle ends up at this Worlds, I have no doubt that she will be in a better position to plan her strategy for '06 than if she'd had the kind of Worlds she's had the last two years.

    3. Michelle made a lot of changes in '02/03 after the Olympics. She hired an off-ice trainer; went with a friend as her coach; improved the use of her total body in her FW sections by working with Morosov; cut her number of competions drastically; and in general took her skating career into her own hands. She was tremendously successful with these changes and her skating improved noticeably. She upped the ante even higher with regard to her competitors, which in turn caused her competitors to search for ways to up their own ante. Before I say this next thing, in no way do I mean to say or imply that Michelle rested on her laurels. However, it's a physiological fact that we all adapt to change. The *push* or *adrenaline high* Michelle would have gotten from seeing her own decisions result in such great success inevitably wears off. It's also inevitable that other skaters would catch up to Michelle. While competing at home, where US judges and fans love Michelle intensely, it's only natural that she's going to get the kinds of responses she got at Nats and last year's Worlds. Michelle had no impetus to make changes--other than the ever-present talk of needing a 3/3. After all, if it ain't broke...

    Also, the talk of MK needing a 3/3 has for years been just that--talk. Nobody has ever really stepped up to the plate and done them in competition except Sokolova, and her presentation was weak compared to Michelle's, plus she had injury problems. I think with this Worlds, the talk of 3/3s has turned to action. Underrotated or not, as others have said, a slightly underrotated 3/3 is still a helluva a lot more difficult than a clean 3/2. Plus more skaters have caught up to or surpassed Michelle's presentation. In other words, as Doggygirl said, Michelle is now part of the pack, which is a position she hasn't been in since '95.

    Finally, if you think skating in North America as opposed to Europe doesn't affect judging, at least under the OBO, consider the ISU events held in the US where Michelle and Irina would go head to head. One year, Irina skated a flawless program, "Schindler's List," in which she had gorgeous presentation and also skated within the rules of the competition, which limited the number of jumps and jump combinations in the artistic program. Michelle skated after Irina and missed her two allowed single jumps. The rules said that only one combo was allowed, but apparently in an effort to at least give the audience a good show, Michelle did two 3/2 combos. According to the rules, Michelle should have lost because she fell twice, never completing any of her planned single triples, and the also broke the rules by doing two combos. Yet Michelle won, rules be damned. Of course it was an ISU cheesefest held in the US where the majority of the judges were from the US. I know a cheesefest is a long way from Worlds, but the point is, there's a Western Bloc just as there is an Eastern Bloc.

    4. No matter how much we say, "The judging should ONLY reflect what the skater does THAT NIGHT!" the fact is that judges are human. And things affect humans that they aren't even aware of. This season, the judges have seen Shizuka make enormous improvements in her skating, not unlike what Michelle did in '03. The judges have also seen Sasha dominate the GP series with COP scores that were often 20 points ahead of the second place skater. While she still had problems with jump consistency, she was still consistently doing very difficult programs five-triple programs. She wasn't doing a 3/3, but her jump entrances were difficult, her spins were superior, her in-betweens improved, and her choreography was superior to most others. With the exception of the ISU event in November, which she skated while sick, and the GPF, which she skated a week later while still recovering, the international judges have seen both Shizuka and Sasha skate well and improve over time in the recent past. While this shouldn't affect scores, it does, just as it did in the past for Michelle. Michelle has received the benefits of having judges be affected by her amazing consistency, which is not to take anything away from her great skates on THE night. But she's also had some not-so-great skates on THE night and been given a .1 to .2 *advance* because she had proved herself over time. It's part and parcel of the OBO system. If Michelle can benefit from it, other skaters can too. BTW, I think this may account for Vika's low scores. She's been wildly inconsistent for years and right or wrong, I think it affects the judging under the OBO.

    5. Finally, even though Kristi Yamaguchi turned pro after she won the OGM in '92, she was Queen of the Pros for almost a decade. However, as the unusually high-quality pro scene started fading and the World Pro became a pro-am, I found it interesting to see the judging of Kristi change so rapidly. In one of her last competitions, the Hallmark in I believe '01 (not sure of the year), Kristi skated what I considered to be the best program she had ever done, "Bridge Over Troubled Water." She skated it flawlessly yet her scores were shockingly low. The commentators struggled to explain the low marks and I believe Tracy Wilson finally said, "It was a slow compared to the other skaters." Seeing it on TV, it's very hard to evaluate speed, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kristi was slower than skaters like Michelle and Irina. But I also think the judges were, again, showing that they are human. They'd been judging Kristi as best in what had been exclusively pro competitions. Now that eligible skaters were in the mix, their jumps and speed made Kristi's maturity of performance and sophisticated choreography moot. Like most of us, we're excited by the new. I don't think the judges are in any way *sending a message* that Michelle should retire. I find that ridiculous. I do, however, think there is merit to the argument that elements that are Michelle's signature moves, such as the CE spiral, now have a "been there, seen that" quality for the judges. I think Michelle is going to have to do more than add one or more 3/3s to stay competitive. I think she's also going to have to get creative with her other elements as well.


    Having said all that, it ain't over till it's over. This is Ando's first worlds. Sasha still hasn't put together a clean short and a clean long (if you don't count the Q round) and the pressure is going to be on her for the finals. Shizuka is also a question mark. We also don't know if Michelle has made changes to "Tosca." I'm not counting Michelle out, not by a long shot. But even if she does win the gold, which she could, I hope Michelle and Artunian will take what happened in the Q round and SP to heart. IMO, skaters like Ando, Cohen, Ota (who we have yet to see at Worlds), possibly Suguri, and perhaps some as yet unknown female *Stefan Lindeman* could surface at any time. I hope Michelle can find a way to balance the improvements she needs to make with keeping her body healthy and her hunger strong. It's a razor's edge.

    Now, who WON'T be biting their nails on Saturday?
    Rgirl
    Last edited by Rgirl; 03-26-2004 at 07:38 PM.

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