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Thread: What constitutes a "good" fall???

  1. #1
    Crazy Armchair Fan/Resident Nerd
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    What constitutes a "good" fall???

    OK, I'm probably going to take a lot of heat for this, but after Plushenko fell in his FP, Terry Gannon (the ABC commentator) kept asking if that fall was going to affect his mark, to which Dick Button's reply was "No, it was a good fall. It shouldn't hurt him"

    So, what constitutes a "good fall" and when, if ever is a fall considered "good"? I'm not trying to say Plushenko should not have won the gold, but I was surprised to see that even with that fall, he received 5.8s and 5.9s for technical merit. In my opinion, even though the fall may not have detracted from the programme, it's still a fall and deserves some kind of reflection in the marks.

    I'm not trying to bring down Plushenko; really, I'm not. My question is when is a fall "good" and why you wouldn't count certain falls.

  2. #2
    Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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    I think what Dick meant by it being a 'good fall' is that because Plushenko did not fall on a technical element ie a jump, spin, footwork sequence etc the fall would not affect his technical score.
    The judges could deduct for the fall from the presentation score but provided he got up and back into the program quickly many judges will not view it as something that affects the program and so will not deduct for it.
    I know there are a lot of people who think that Plushenko should not have gotten 6.0's thanks to the fall but because his overall presentation was better than Jouberts he had to be marked higher to reflect that and because the judges had already given Joubert quite high marks the only way to go was 6.0

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    Skating Diva Kara Bear's Avatar
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    Didn't he fall on his way into 3 loop?

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    He didn't fall on the jump though, just the preparation which a judge looks at like falling into a crossover which they don't seem to deduct for. I guess they figure that sometimes skaters catch a bad edge and they don't want to penalize for it especially if everything else in the program was stellar.

    I thought the fall took a lot out of the performance though. No one is disputing the win b/c of the overall quality of skating, but I think it did detract from the performance.

  5. #5
    Skating Diva Kara Bear's Avatar
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    I agree. Its really unfortunate that it happened so close to the end of his program.

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    GOLDEN DREAMS RealtorGal's Avatar
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    I didn't notice him getting up faster than any other skater I've seen fall. That's just an excuse they used because it's Plushy.

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    Originally posted by RealtorGal
    That's just an excuse they used because it's Plushy.

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    In my heart, I'm actually Canadian....
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    I didn't notice him get up any faster than usual, either, but I do agree it was the type of fall that he shouldn't have been overly penalized for; however, good fall or bad fall -- a fall is a fall, and there should not have been 6s.

    I think the judging with these types of falls is extremely inconsistent. I have seen many of them over the years, and sometimes it doesn't matter at all in the scoring, and sometimes a skater gets such a huge deduction for it that you'd've thought he/she/they pretty much sprawled out on the ice for 4 minutes. I don't think reputation has as much to do with it as inconsistent judging.

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    I think Plushenko's fall was a little disruptive, but he really attacked his program after that. I've never seen him spin that well; it looked like the fall lighted a fire under him.

    Personally, I wouldn't have given him 6.0. But I wouldn't have given Joubert a 5.9. If we look at the marks and see that Joubert had four 5.9's and Plush had four 6.0's and we assume that they were from the same judges, Plush's marks make sense as placeholders. I would have given Plush a 5.9, Lambiel a 5.8, and Joubert a 5.7.

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    Skating Diva Kara Bear's Avatar
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    Mike, I agree with your mark for Lambiel. He totally rocked my world! And I thought he was better than he was given credit for.

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by RealtorGal
    I didn't notice him getting up faster than any other skater I've seen fall. That's just an excuse they used because it's Plushy.

    What do you mean he wasn't getting up faster than any other skaters? That was a quick recovery. He didn't even miss a beat ! You can barely tell if he fell if you blink. Even Dick Button agreed. When you fall on a jump, it is more apparent and disruptive (including when Plushy falls on a jump).


    I am not a Plushy fan normally, but please give credits where credits are due.

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    Dick Button is no Plushy fan either, but he was honestly impressed by Plushy's performance yesterday. The fall meant diddly squat in the perspective of what he did and how he performed it. And yes, he got 6.0s because Joubert was marked too high, not because his performance was perfect.

    Now if he had gotten TECHNICAL 6.0s, there would be a basis for complaint.

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    Originally posted by mike79
    I think Plushenko's fall was a little disruptive, but he really attacked his program after that. I've never seen him spin that well; it looked like the fall lighted a fire under him.

    Personally, I wouldn't have given him 6.0. But I wouldn't have given Joubert a 5.9. If we look at the marks and see that Joubert had four 5.9's and Plush had four 6.0's and we assume that they were from the same judges, Plush's marks make sense as placeholders. I would have given Plush a 5.9, Lambiel a 5.8, and Joubert a 5.7.
    Couldn't speak it better!!! I feel exactly the same way.

    Didn't know Lambiel before this World. I'd say I become a instant fan of him after the LP. In the SP I just felt his spin was fantastic. The LP showed that he has the whole package. I like the spark and fire in his performance.

    Plush deserves the win. He skated above everybody else even with the fall.

    Joubert had very good skills, but before he can really beat Plush, he needs the magic factor of Yagudin if Plush does not make big mistake.

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    Honestly, with the way the judges were handing out marks in the competition, they probably expected and wanted to give Plushy 6.0s. Usually judges save the marks. In previous competitions, Joubert wouldn't have gotten all of those 5.9s, he would have gotten 5.8s and they would have left room for Plushy to get 5.9s b/c 6.0 is a rare mark, not a placeholder the way they used it here.

    Having seen S&Z's Lp, I did not think it was worthy of all those 6.0s either b/c it wasn't skated 100% perfect (slight mismatch on their spin) but what the hey, the 6.0 is on its way out and it's anonymous so let's just give the 6.0 out like it's candy. T&M weren't deserving of a 6.0 either.

    In the old days, if a judge gave a 6.0, unless other judges matched it,that judge would be questioned. Now that it's anonymous, it really doesn't matter.

  15. #15
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    Good point, Soogar; it's on its way out, the sky's the limit, what the heck. We should take bets on how many 6.0s will be handed out to the last few ladies!

    Sarah

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