2014 Olympics Free Dance

bramweld said:

^^ Why don't we wait until next season before pronouncing judgement. I recall some four yours ago when all D/W had was their great elements and practically no danceyness or great transitions to speak of. They may not be my cup of tea but they have improved nicely.

As per I/K if their SD is any indication they CAN do more than drama!! So I'll wait before passing judgement. They are only 19 and 22 and mind you they adore V/M so I don't think they want to be labelled in any one particular category. Just a feelin...but time will tell.

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Let‘s wait for World Championships judgement. Appropriate and non-appropriate GOE and components will show us how much judges appreciate real dancing and in what direction they prefer to develop this cathegory.

In SD I&K ignore the rhythm outside of finnstep, the choreo ignores ballroom overall and quickstep requirements as well (even dancing charleston for few seconds to quickstep music), and the story is – Nikita adores Lena and Lena is beautiful and presents herself to judges. No ballroom. Beautiful dress and smiles, but for me this is once again the same game like in FD and like past three years.

I know they are young - it can explain their simple choreo and not understanding deep emotions which especially Tchaikovski really really needs. But using their age I can’t excuse not keeping the rhythm and not expressing even ballroom dances – but this complain goes once again to Morozov (and previously to Zhulin) – he is the one who should learn them how to keep the rhythm and what is ballroom – quickstep about. Why didn’t he do that, that is a real mystery for me. Maybe they spent so many time learning new lifts, that they didn’t have time for other things…

While fans are kind and support the couple no matter how they skate, it is great. But judges should judge what they see on the ice wihout looking at. It this case Sinitsina & Zhiganshin should get 114 points for free, because they are younger then I&K, their choreo is more difficult, their presentation is much more into music and they keep the rhythm better then I&K. And if they make a mistake in choreo lift – come on, they are young (if judges excused Nikita problematic twizzles and forget to put down a level and GOE, they could close their eyes above that not successful lift as well, no?).

Soloviev had a brain concussion, back injury, at the end of previous season groin injury. Denis Ten had problems with both health and boots – this all caused that they couldn’t train properly for whole Olympic season (being young doesn’t protect you in front of practises). But I didn’t notice that judges would excuse Soloviev or Ten because of anything. And overall judges are sitting on their places to judge skating, they shouldn’t be influenced by anything else (injury, age, any Federation’s opinion).

I would be very glad to see that I&K start to be like V&M in same way. But I start to be sceptic…I&K talk about liking V&M since we know them internationally – 2009/2010 season. Now we have 2013/14. Both couples have deep edges, both couples tries to look like people in great relationships. V&M’s skating description – close holdings, dancing positions, difficult lifts greatly done, understanding of any music, keeping the rhythm – I&K are far to it. Why, if they love them and want to be like them, why I&K were not inspired by dancing style of V&M? Why is I&K‘s style closer and closer to pair cathegory every year? One minute in FD non-touching? Isn’t it a record in ice dancing? Why judges didn’t look at this? Holds are in compents description.

I will be happy if Ice Dance cathegory will return to dancing…I still see some couples who can dance. If I&K start to work not only on lifts but also on many other dancing aspects and if they increase a number of real dancers on the ice one day, it will be a great thing and big plus for skating overall.

TontoK said:

Matt, you really need to let go. We know you're disappointed in the outcome. We know you wouldn't have scored it that way.

We know these things because we've read them many times.

They are two fantastic teams. We've probably seen their last competitive programs. It's the end of a great era. Look back and be proud that your favorite team held up their end in this historic rivalry. Both teams hang up their skates with a couple of WC and an OGM. It's nothing to sniff at.

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If there would be an old judging system which respected dancing much more then new one, V&M would be superior couple. Looking at edges, close holdings, loosing speed – or more exactly not loosing speed, variety in programs – V&M are leaders in it. As to twizzles, sometimes better arm work, lifts, costumes and interesting music for the Olympics and less mistakes skating throught last seasons – it would probably go to D&W. New judging system is used to appreciate few elements more then ever before and judges preferations are more obvious then never before, so the power of those two teams can be quite equal overall.

To those discussions about V&M‘s FD: for me it is also a repetition of Mahler, while Mahler program was a special and something “new“, this dance was not taken like something new. I agree. But is it really a problem? Is there any component which talks about judges and audience’s excitement from music? A music which would take your breath away? I didn’t find any. Components describe choreography which expresses music – looking at V&M – it was done. Skating skills..it was done. Interpretation of music and Performance…it was done. Timing…it was done. What many people didn’t agree with was a music which didn’t make people scream of happiness. And is it really required? Because the dance itself was great. And elements were great. And presentation of the dance was great. Is it OK to push skaters to skate on some music, which is not close to their hearts, but judges and audience love to hear it?
I&K are a great example, skating to Tchaikovski which is too big for them looking at deepness, gradation, rhythm. And judges and audience love this music. Why couldn’t they use some light soundtrack – Grease or High School Musical – it would fit to their abilities and even to their age much more. But no, Morozov couldn’t choose it, because he wanted to take judges and audience‘s attention, he wanted a melody which will take your breath, to persuade everybody that kids are as great as Tchaikovski – at the age of 19 and 22. Why so soon?

But come back to V&M, should judges placement really react so much on overall opinion that V&M‘s music is not a music with that WOW effect? Shouldn’t they judge their dancing more?

Skater Boy said:

I hope for justice, fairness, karma and that they all skate well but no over marking please.

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Unfortunately there was over marking....

sisinka said:

If there would be an old judging system which respected dancing much more then new one, V&M would be superior couple. Looking at edges, close holdings, loosing speed – or more exactly not loosing speed, variety in programs – V&M are leaders in it. As to twizzles, sometimes better arm work, lifts, costumes and interesting music for the Olympics and less mistakes skating throught last seasons – it would probably go to D&W. New judging system is used to appreciate few elements more then ever before and judges preferations are more obvious then never before, so the power of those two teams can be quite equal overall.

To those discussions about V&M‘s FD: for me it is also a repetition of Mahler, while Mahler program was a special and something “new“, this dance was not taken like something new. I agree. But is it really a problem? Is there any component which talks about judges and audience’s excitement from music? A music which would take your breath away? I didn’t find any. Components describe choreography which expresses music – looking at V&M – it was done. Skating skills..it was done. Interpretation of music and Performance…it was done. Timing…it was done. What many people didn’t agree with was a music which didn’t make people scream of happiness. And is it really required? Because the dance itself was great. And elements were great. And presentation of the dance was great. Is it OK to push skaters to skate on some music, which is not close to their hearts, but judges and audience love to hear it?
I&K are a great example, skating to Tchaikovski which is too big for them looking at deepness, gradation, rhythm. And judges and audience love this music. Why couldn’t they use some light soundtrack – Grease or High School Musical – it would fit to their abilities and even to their age much more. But no, Morozov couldn’t choose it, because he wanted to take judges and audience‘s attention, he wanted a melody which will take your breath, to persuade everybody that kids are as great as Tchaikovski – at the age of 19 and 22. Why so soon?

But come back to V&M, should judges placement really react so much on overall opinion that V&M‘s music is not a music with that WOW effect? Shouldn’t they judge their dancing more?

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Hehe....LOL:confused2: Ghost?

sisinka said:

I meant that there was just one place in men competition – Plushenko (so he couldn’t be replaced) and because Pairs Individual competition had early start (so they had to be replaced)…so the second replacement could be in Ladies or in Dance…that is why I wrote that it was obvious that it is a duel of Ladies replacement against Dance replacement.

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According to this interview her coach said: http://fsrussia.ru/news/1118_eteri-...orye-vyhodyat-na-vysokij-uroven-maksimalisty/

Q: Did you insist that Julia skated both in the team and individual event? They say you even asked the the minister of sports for that.

A: It's not true. After the European championships I was told that in the team event Julia would skate the free, and Adelina would skate the short program, because throughout the season they were winning those segments. I thought it was fair. I even started to plan the preparation concentrating on the free program. But then there were talks that Julia would not skate in the team event, only Adelina, because the situation in ice dance was difficult, and both our ice dance teams were to skate in the team event in order to lessen the stress for Elena Ilinykh and Nikita Katsalapov, who were preparing to challenge for bronze.

And it was the only time that I called the federation and asked to keep Julia on the team event roster, because she earned that right. Julia placed higher in all the competitions this season, with the exception of the Russian Nationals, she was more consistent. I asked only for that, to let her participate in the team event. It wasn't even discussed how many programs she would skate. I am not the person who makes such decisions. And then they asked me: "What if Julia had to skate four programs, would she be able to?" And I said that if we don't have a choice, if the question is to be or not to be, to participate or not, of course, the answer was yes.


I still don't get it why the ladies team should be effected by the ice dance team, but still, here she tells a slightly different story.
Apparently, she also confirms my opinion about pressure and stress, which of course can produce fatigue:


Q: How did it affect Julia's preparation for the individual event?

A: It would be wrong to blame anyone or to say that we couldn't prepare properly for the individual event. Technically and functionally, we were prepared even better for the individual event than for the team event. After returning to Moscow, Julia was very focused, did everything from the first try. So the reason for her unsuccessful showing in the individual event was not lack of preparation, but her psychological state.

The attention and hysteria around her were very tiring. She took very personally everything that was said about her family. She was upset because her grandmother and her relatives are not public persons, and suddenly they were put in the spotlight. Julia even called Alexander Gorshkov, the president of the figure skating federation, and asked him to protect her family from the journalists. All together, these things exhausted her, hence the mistakes in the programs.


p.s. The translation it's not mine, I don't know Russian language. I took it from another forum.

Yes, judges simply love them giving them a special credit for a fall (they got about 2 points higher components than at TEB…and those 10 points for choreography from one judge…with a fall?).

We can’t play a game “if“….if I&K would skate with good levels they would finish second at NHK and qualified for Final…if they skated clean they would be possibly first at Nationals …if they skated clean at last World Championships they could be in top 5…if they skated clean three years ago they already could be Grand Prix Final qualifiers in 2010/11 season. But they didn’t skate clean and they lost the first place at all those competitions. That is a reality.

But frankly when did it happen for the last time to have European or Worlds medalists with a fall during dance? Grishuk & Platov in 1998 at European Championships, but they were already Olympic, World and European Champions and Tarasova supported them so much. Annisina & Peizerat in 2001 at European Championships, but they were already European and World Champions. Both couples were loved by judged, so is I&K. Pechalat & Bourzat fell in free dance at World Championships 2011 and they lost a Bronze medal thanks to it, a Bronze medal, not Gold medal.

And once again a question when did it happen for the last time to have European and Olympic Ice Dance medalists who are not able to keep the rhythm?

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When did I said that judges love to give special extra marks with a fall? I said if not for the fall they would've won, and yes we could "play a game with If" when it's used to demonstrate that they were so bad, in your opinion, that they got beaten by the Italians in the euro.
About giving 10 for a choreography with a fall, can I give 9.50 than? I can very well appreciate a choreography but not the interpretation or the performance for example, it's not contradictory.
Just bring an example, in the ladies free I think the best choreography was Sotnikova's, but I didn't think her interpretation was the best.
I think it was too elaborated and a difficult concept.

I do agree with many of your critics regarding I&K, in fact with most of them, but that night in Sochi I personally didn't see a better couple for the bronze medal. That's just my opinion, as a fan of figure skating and ballet (I think I have almost all ballets on my archive at home), and also as someone who have seen a lot of skating obviously. Certainly I'm not an expert nor a judge.

I do not understand though the critics about their interpretation of the Swan program. Can you elaborate more on that?

Last but not least, I think it's useless to bring into this discussion the great past skaters of the Russian ice dance, and others for that matter.
I think that dance today is quite dead. I can remember a huge number of programs from the past like: all Usova&Zhulin, Klimova&Ponomarenko, Torvill&Dean and the list goes on and on, because they were unique. Some were fantastic overall skaters others less but they were very distinctive.
For the last ten years except some of the programs from V&M and D&W I hardly can remember other programs or how they skated, at all.
Ice Dancing used to be my top event, together with the pairs and men, not anymore and I blame the new judging system.

sisinka said:

Elif wrote me that Morozov was a Russian Federation coach – so a Pro-Russian skater only, that was why I answered in that way.
Just to prove that he not only Russian coach but mainly A COACH who supports some of his students no matter from what country are they.
I don’t agree with Russian Federation pushing Russian coaches to have Russian skaters only. (Also Cohen was pushed by US Federation to ended her cooperation with Tarasova thanks to nationality as I heard).
Personally I think that any coach should be allowed to train who wants.

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I don't know if he gets paid by the Russian Federation, but I know he said "I was asked by them to coach I&K".
There is a video on RT Sports youtube channel. It's an interview with him and I&K about preparations of Sochi.
So, he may very well be supported by the Fed, like many others I suppose. Still, since they're his students he'll be looking after their interests which is in his interests of course. .

Each country could pick only 2 disciplines in the team event to split the long & short between different competitors.

For Russia, the men could not be split. It was Plushenko or no one.
Pairs had to be split as they wanted V&T to have both a rest before the individual competition started, and they also wanted the first place points from them for the SP.

With men & pairs settled, only one of ladies and dance could be split. The Russian fed picked to split dance, to favor I&K by giving them the opportunity to have a completely non-stress opportunity to compete at Sochi before the individual comp and get the feel of the ice and a free gold medal by scheduling them for the FD only.

That meant either Julia or Adelina had to skate both FS and SP.

Thank you dori. Finally. I had no idea about it.

Alba said:

According to this interview her coach said: http://fsrussia.ru/news/1118_eteri-...orye-vyhodyat-na-vysokij-uroven-maksimalisty/

Q: Did you insist that Julia skated both in the team and individual event? They say you even asked the the minister of sports for that.

A: It's not true. After the European championships I was told that in the team event Julia would skate the free, and Adelina would skate the short program, because throughout the season they were winning those segments. I thought it was fair. I even started to plan the preparation concentrating on the free program. But then there were talks that Julia would not skate in the team event, only Adelina, because the situation in ice dance was difficult, and both our ice dance teams were to skate in the team event in order to lessen the stress for Elena Ilinykh and Nikita Katsalapov, who were preparing to challenge for bronze.

And it was the only time that I called the federation and asked to keep Julia on the team event roster, because she earned that right. Julia placed higher in all the competitions this season, with the exception of the Russian Nationals, she was more consistent. I asked only for that, to let her participate in the team event. It wasn't even discussed how many programs she would skate. I am not the person who makes such decisions. And then they asked me: "What if Julia had to skate four programs, would she be able to?" And I said that if we don't have a choice, if the question is to be or not to be, to participate or not, of course, the answer was yes.


I still don't get it why the ladies team should be effected by the ice dance team, but still, here she tells a slightly different story.
Apparently, she also confirms my opinion about pressure and stress, which of course can produce fatigue:


Q: How did it affect Julia's preparation for the individual event?

A: It would be wrong to blame anyone or to say that we couldn't prepare properly for the individual event. Technically and functionally, we were prepared even better for the individual event than for the team event. After returning to Moscow, Julia was very focused, did everything from the first try. So the reason for her unsuccessful showing in the individual event was not lack of preparation, but her psychological state.

The attention and hysteria around her were very tiring. She took very personally everything that was said about her family. She was upset because her grandmother and her relatives are not public persons, and suddenly they were put in the spotlight. Julia even called Alexander Gorshkov, the president of the figure skating federation, and asked him to protect her family from the journalists. All together, these things exhausted her, hence the mistakes in the programs.


p.s. The translation it's not mine, I don't know Russian language. I took it from another forum..

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Words about lessen stress to I&K are there, which means that one lady had to skate four programs while I&K only three. But single skater’s programs need more dynamics because there are jump and when you are tired, dynamics is the first what goes away. Why Russian Federation prefered to make more comfortable I&K (Bronze Medal contender) and not Julia (Gold Medal contender)?

I already wrote that Tutberidze didn‘t blame anyone, but many other people blame Russian Federation for this decision. Only Julia from all Russian skaters complained about “not feeling her legs“, which is a symptom of tiredness.
Every skater feels stress at the Olympics and Julia is no exception. While some skaters feel a stress and can handle it, other can’t. Why Julia succeeded fighting for Team Gold (where she was fighting not only for herself, but for other nine people)? Why she failed fighting for herself only?

Look at other Federation’s decision. No Medal contender from single cathegory skated four programs (Kostner, Asada, Suzuki, Wagner, Gold, Chan, Hanyu), only Julia did. While V&M and D&W skated four dances and they were not tired. Probably other Federations realised that four programs take a lot of energy from single skaters, while dance teams are able to handle it much better. I believe that if Federation or Tessa or Meryl thought that four programs would make their chance for Gold Medal smaller, they wouldn’t skate both programs at Teams.

Alba said:

I don't know if he gets paid by the Russian Federation, but I know he said "I was asked by them to coach I&K". .

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Morozov is paid by Russian Federation, every coach who trains Russian Team skater is paid by Russian Federation. And he is paid greatly. They made such great offer to him to overcome offers in America, so he agreed to come back (they didn’t make such great offer to Platov, so he didn’t come back). And Russian Federation pays trainings, costumes, skates and food for skaters as I know. Only I&K and Morozov spend so much time in America every season which is very expensive for Russian people – both skaters and coaches. And it is paid by Russian Federation.

Alba said:

Last but not least, I think it's useless to bring into this discussion the great past skaters of the Russian ice dance, and others for that matter.
I think that dance today is quite dead. I can remember a huge number of programs from the past like: all Usova&Zhulin, Klimova&Ponomarenko, Torvill&Dean and the list goes on and on, because they were unique. Some were fantastic overall skaters others less but they were very distinctive.
For the last ten years except some of the programs from V&M and D&W I hardly can remember other programs or how they skated, at all.
Ice Dancing used to be my top event, together with the pairs and men, not anymore and I blame the new judging system.

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If Ice Dance under new judging system is not about dance no more, then it would really have no sense to make such examples. But description of components talks a lot about dancing qualities – rhythm, close holds, deep edges, understanding and expressing music including ballroom dances. Why judges don’t respect what is written in Hanbook for them?

Alba said:

When did I said that judges love to give special extra marks with a fall? I said if not for the fall they would've won, and yes we could "play a game with If" when it's used to demonstrate that they were so bad, in your opinion, that they got beaten by the Italians in the euro.
About giving 10 for a choreography with a fall, can I give 9.50 than? I can very well appreciate a choreography but not the interpretation or the performance for example, it's not contradictory.
Just bring an example, in the ladies free I think the best choreography was Sotnikova's, but I didn't think her interpretation was the best.
I think it was too elaborated and a difficult concept. ?

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A fall always affects components. If one judge gave 10 for choreo and the couple fall, what would a judge give if they didn’t fall? Without the fall a program is better (as most of people thinks), and if a choreography means all moments and movements during the program - a fall in element influences a choreography and choreography mark also, no?
I think that different marking in every components is a great idea, some people are great in interpretation while they are poor in skating skills (Misha Ge for example, your example also). But unfortunately judges are used to give marks for all components on very similar level (if you get high Skating Skills, you will get high Choreo and Performance etc…and usually those skaters have high GOE and high levels – like judges would want to say that for example some single skater who fully rotates quad salchow has immediately great skating skills and choreography). I don’t think it is right.

So time ago I made a comparison of I&K’s FD components and GOE on different competitions this season – at NHK they were clean (only got low levels), at TEB Lena stumbled and third set of Nikita’s twizzles was out of synchro (just small bubble), at Russian Nationals one missed element and another mistakes, a fall at Europeans, a clean skate at Olympics. Every mistake influences GOE and components. If you didn’t knew which dances were done with mistakes and looked on components and GOE only, you would hardly predict which programs were not clean. When other couples loose GOE and components making mistakes in programs why I&K don’t loose or even increase them?

I&K NHK PCS: 50,16 8,54 7,82 8,54 8,57 8,68 (GOE + 7,66)
I&K TEB PCS: 52,31 8,79 8,39 8,96 8,61 9,07 (GOE + 10,31)
I&K Nationals PCS: 55,55 9,32 9,07 9,14 9,50 9,30 (GOE + 10,59)
I&K European PCS: 54,69 9,14 8,86 9,18 9,36 9,21 (GOE + 9,42)
I&K Team Free PCS:54,12 9,00 8,68 9,25 9,25 9,18 (GOE +10,16)

Olympics Individual FD PCS: 56,30 9,32 9,14 9,61 9,54 9,50 (GOE + 12,44)
This dance was without mistakes, only Nikita’s troubles in twizzles…but how can a program without any changements in even one step during whole season arise in choreography for whole point since first competition? For the whole season they skated waltz part out of the rhythm but Timing/Interpretation improved about almost one point as well.

(I remember one judge complaining at European Championships 2011 that one couple from top 10 didn’t keep the rhythm perfectly. That judge was very critical to that couple talking about the importance of keeping the rhythm, explaining how essential is it for dancers. Why we have Olympic Bronze medalists who are not able to keep the rhythm? When keeping the rhythm was essencial in 2011, is it suddenly not important in 2014?)

sisinka said:

In SD I&K ignore the rhythm outside of finnstep, the choreo ignores ballroom overall and quickstep requirements as well (even dancing charleston for few seconds to quickstep music)

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Hun, you do know that the quickstep was derived from the charleston, is danced in the same time & in ballroom dancing now still borrows a huge amount of steps that are found in the charleston? I know you have a massive hard on for hating on I/K, but maybe you could stick to statements that are slightly in the realm of truth?

Flat_fan??? Is that you. Or are you Juliasochi now....wait that account got banned.

Well I do question the use of 16 Tons for any dance that is supposed to be elegant ballroom, like quickstep, foxtrot or finnstep, even though it does have the correct time signature.

Yes, there are Charleston connections to all the dances of that era in 4 4 time, but it doesn't mean they were all ballroom appropriate.

sisinka said:

Every skater feels stress at the Olympics and Julia is no exception. While some skaters feel a stress and can handle it, other can’t. Why Julia succeeded fighting for Team Gold (where she was fighting not only for herself, but for other nine people)? Why she failed fighting for herself only?

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I can't possibly know why. I can just give an opinion, which I did, but according to her coach (which nows her better) the pressure from the media and people was too much. Some of them gone mad and trying to contact her father etc. I would think that's too much for a girl in such a young age.

Morozov is paid by Russian Federation, every coach who trains Russian Team skater is paid by Russian Federation. And he is paid greatly. They made such great offer to him to overcome offers in America, so he agreed to come back (they didn’t make such great offer to Platov, so he didn’t come back). And Russian Federation pays trainings, costumes, skates and food for skaters as I know. Only I&K and Morozov spend so much time in America every season which is very expensive for Russian people – both skaters and coaches. And it is paid by Russian Federation.

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Good, so they've started to invest again then? I hope this was not just something about Sochi but will continue.

If Ice Dance under new judging system is not about dance no more, then it would really have no sense to make such examples. But description of components talks a lot about dancing qualities – rhythm, close holds, deep edges, understanding and expressing music including ballroom dances. Why judges don’t respect what is written in Hanbook for them?

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I was not speaking about the components but the programs. With all the lifts, possibly change position, not longer than 6 sec (who was the idiot that invented this?, twizzles etc., they look almost the same to me now. No wonder that the artistry is suffering.

A fall always affects components. If one judge gave 10 for choreo and the couple fall, what would a judge give if they didn’t fall? Without the fall a program is better (as most of people thinks), and if a choreography means all moments and movements during the program - a fall in element influences a choreography and choreography mark also, no?

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Of course a fall affects the components, I already said they lost the title because of the fall. It depends also how big is the fall, if they both fall, how long is the interruption, the break from the fall etc., and this goes for the pairs as well. Although it has more impact in an Ice Dance performance no doubt about that.
I agree that choreography means all moments and movements during the program, but not only. There is also a concept behind, creativity, difficult work etc., and I personally would reward that.
I would not give, for example, a 7.50 GEO to a choreography which I think deserves 10, "just" because a fall. It would affect the performance/execution though.

I think that different marking in every components is a great idea, some people are great in interpretation while they are poor in skating skills (Misha Ge for example, your example also). But unfortunately judges are used to give marks for all components on very similar level (if you get high Skating Skills, you will get high Choreo and Performance etc…and usually those skaters have high GOE and high levels – like judges would want to say that for example some single skater who fully rotates quad salchow has immediately great skating skills and choreography). I don’t think it is right.

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I fully agree!

%uhh said:

Hun, you do know that the quickstep was derived from the charleston, is danced in the same time & in ballroom dancing now still borrows a huge amount of steps that are found in the charleston? I know you have a massive hard on for hating on I/K, but maybe you could stick to statements that are slightly in the realm of truth?

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Quickstep came from Charleston and Slow Fortrot (some dance coaches even say that there is a Polka as well).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickstep
"[The quickstep is a light-hearted member of the standard ballroom dances. The movement of the dance is fast and powerfully flowing and sprinkled with syncopations. The upbeat melodies that quickstep is danced to make it suitable for both formal and informal events. Quickstep was developed in the twenties in New York and was first danced by Caribbean and African dancers. Its origins are in combination of slow foxtrot combined with the Charleston, a dance which was one of the precursors to what today is called swing dancing."

We are not going to dance Slow Fortrot and Charleston to Quickstep, right? It only came from those dances. And there was a possibility - dancers could choose to dance Charleston, as I know. But no, I&K chose Quicstep and danced a little bit of Quickstep, a little bit of Charleston, a little bit of free style. (Another dance coach even recognised a moments when it looked like a Tango - he watched their dance without music and looked only on them).

But this complains goes mainly to a choreographer - Morozov, so why you talk about hating kids? Did they make their own choreography?

Alba said:

I do agree with many of your critics regarding I&K, in fact with most of them, but that night in Sochi I personally didn't see a better couple for the bronze medal. That's just my opinion, as a fan of figure skating and ballet (I think I have almost all ballets on my archive at home), and also as someone who have seen a lot of skating obviously. Certainly I'm not an expert nor a judge.

I do not understand though the critics about their interpretation of the Swan program. Can you elaborate more on that?

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There is a problem with stories – Odylie and Rothbart… or “woman and man in love and fight“ story. Those two stories were changing, in the beginning of the season it was a Swan Lake with Odylie and Rothbart, but finally for Grand Prix – a woman and man story was chosen. But after the Olympics Morozov once again persisted on Odylie and Rothbart saing that Lena is so close to Odylie, that it suits her perfectly. During Lena and Nikita‘s interview after the Olympics kids themself confirm that Nikita is Rothbart and it suits him perfectly and Lena is Princess Odylie (no, wait, Odylie was not a princess, Odetta was a princess, another misunderstanding made by kids about Swan Lake). On the ice we once again see a love story between Lena and Nikita – but it would mean that father Rothbart is a lover of his daughter?

I wrote about Swan Lake free dance from previous competitions and even compared it with Don Quijote (somebody noted it is similar):
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?48536-2014-Olympics-Team-Event-Free-Dance/page4 post number 59 and 60 at the end of the page

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ion-of-skaters&p=818836&highlight=#post818836 post number 18

I don’t know if you have a possibility to watch video of their Olympic Individual free dance.
If you are a ballet lover – you certainly noticed that both Lena and Nikita have their heads too forward (which is not even a dance position and very far to a ballet position), no balletic Lena’s arms and fingers, a fist during movements, not extended free leg. All Lena, Nikita and Morozov say that it is not a ballet, but they use Swan costume, a ballet music and make some Swan/ballet movements.

Interpretation / Timing:
Definition:
The personal and creative translation of the rhythm and/or character and content of the music to movement on ice.
Criteria:
•Effortless and correct movement in time to the music (timing)
•Expression of the music’s rhythm, character, content and style
•Use of finesse1 to reflect the nuances of the music
•Relationship between the partners reflecting the character and content of the music
•Appropriateness of the music
•Skating primarily to the rhythmic beat for Short Dance and keeping a good balance between skating to the beat and melody in the Free Dance
1Finesse is the Skaters’ refined, artful manipulation of nuances. Nuances are the personal artistic ways of bringing variations to the intensity, tempo, and dynamics of the music made by the composer and/or musicians.

The highest mark for timing without 100% keeping the rhythm is under 7 points. Whole Waltz part is out of the rhythm.

Expression of the character …which character – a Swan or woman…Rothbart or man?
Expression of music … final music part is more dynamic then first music part, but Lena and Nikita’s moves are more dynamic in first part of program. While a music gradates in last minute and half, their movements are less dynamic and less powerful then at the beginning and also the speed is the same or slower then at the beginning. Slow romantic part in the middle of program is OK, only too much looks to judges side.

Expression of style – ballet or not ballet style? Lena and Nikita‘s ballet style is not balletic. If I called their style a free style, then it is good. A dance style is not good – all dance couples should have extended free leg and finished arm movements (one of first things which are all young dancers learning, especially in Russia) and keep dance close holds and skate close to each other.

Nuances as the personal artistic ways of bringing variations to the intensity, tempo, and dynamics of the music…especially during last dramatic and dynamic music part - a music is above them.

Relationship between the partners reflecting the character…relationship is great between those two but what is reflecting? Odylie? But Odylie was not in love, she only played her game with Prince. A woman who is in love? To who – Nikita or judges? Woman in love who is doing Swan moves wearing Swan costume and make-up? And finally dies in Swan/ballet position? And Nikita is a man in love, so why those arm movements which reminds of a bird or evil? Why he tries to be demonic? Man in love is not demonic. Demonic like Rothbart? But Rothbart couldn’t fall in love with his daughter.

Reflecting content of the music…the same problems like in case of expression of music.

Appropriateness of the music…I am not sure what to imagine under these words…how much choreography and skaters express the music suitably?

Keeping a good balance between skating to the beat and melody in the Free Dance…Lena and Nikita don’t do that especially in Waltz part.

In moment when other dances will be available on YouTube Channel, it will be a very interesting comparison mainly in presentation of top 7 couples. If you will watch them one after another you will notice that while six couples (even C&L) are able to skate faster or gradate and increase the intension and depth of expression throught the dance, I&K are the only ones who skate in almost same speed, and loose dynamics towards the end (the less dramatic movements are the more dramatic facial expression is)…simply they were the most careful and tired couple. I don’t blame them, they are young and they simply didn’t want to make a mistake, that is understable. But unfortunately Tchaikovski is a not a music about being careful, it is a big drama and kids were not able to express it…and judge’s marks should reflect it. And all those Nikita and Morozov’s interview about controlling emotions and not make a mistake…yes, you have to control yourself and concentrate well, but it shouldn’t take a part of presentation down. Tchaikovski…Swan Lake…it is a music and story about life and death, about love and hateness…about good and evil…all extremes. You can’t skate it carefully on 50% of dramatics and dynamics, you have to skate it like it would be the last dance in your life with putting everything what is inside of you to that program. All other six couples put everything on the ice and skated on 150% emotionally (and looking to Russian Forum people‘s reaction – there were even three couples who brought tears into people’s eyes because of how they skated and interpreted the music…V&M and P&B and B&S).
Probably I&K are too young for showing such emotions and skating, but once again look to judges…if they can’t notice the difference between careful skating and skating on 150%, what are component marks for?

This is my understanding of Timing/Interpretation mark.

I did a reference piece on ice dance PCS
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?36573-Ice-Dancing-PCS-Rules-2011-2012

The video references are from the 2011-2012 season, and the piece was written immediately after the GPF.

Here's the Timing and Interp part of the post
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ules-2011-2012&p=626496&viewfull=1#post626496

The rules have not been updated, so the piece is still valid for the 2013-2014 season, although some of the video links may not work if youtube has taken them down.

The one point you missed is to remember that dance, unlike pairs and singles, has ISU Communication 1677, Rule 611, which describes exactly how PCS are supposed to be calculated in ice dance, and has a bracket break down to describe exactly what a 9 - 10 PCS component ought to be.

Even for a 7.0 to 7.75 Timing & Interpretation PCS grade, Timing is supposed to be 100%.

Needless to say, judges don't usually follow their own rules on this.

•skating/music integrated
•very good internal motivation
•skaters stay “in character” for over 75% of program
•very good partner relationship
•very good expression of the music’s style and character
•timing: 100% correct
•expression of Rhythms (SD): 100% correct

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Compare the language for 9 - 10 range

• skaters/music/nuances as one
•motivation from “heart”
•wide range of inspired movements, gestures
•skaters stay “in character” for the whole program
•exceptional ability to relate as one and to reflect music, theme
•superb expression of the music’s style and character
•timing: 100% correct expression of Rhythms

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I would have a hard time giving I&K a mark between 9 and 10 in Interpretation & Timing.

However, the skaters only have to have the majority of the bullets at a given level to qualify for the level, which is how I would suppose that judges would defend how they evaluate I&K.

The language of comunication 1677 is

The mark for each Program Component is established at a certain degree according to the majority of Characteristics of Program Component which are met. This mark is further adjusted, if necessary, according to the Adjustments to Program Component.

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I wish the ISU had a similar layout for singles. If they have it, I haven't seen it, and if they have it, the judges certainly don't apply it.

dorispulaski said:

I did a reference piece on ice dance PCS
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?36573-Ice-Dancing-PCS-Rules-2011-2012

The video references are from the 2011-2012 season, and the piece was written immediately after the GPF.

Here's the Timing and Interp part of the post
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ules-2011-2012&p=626496&viewfull=1#post626496

The rules have not been updated, so the piece is still valid for the 2013-2014 season, although some of the video links may not work if youtube has taken them down.

The one point you missed is to remember that dance, unlike pairs and singles, has ISU Communication 1677, Rule 611, which describes exactly how PCS are supposed to be calculated in ice dance, and has a bracket break down to describe exactly what a 9 - 10 PCS component ought to be.

Even for a 7.0 to 7.75 Timing & Interpretation PCS grade, Timing is supposed to be 100%.

Needless to say, judges don't usually follow their own rules on this.



Compare the language for 9 - 10 range



I would have a hard time giving I&K a mark between 9 and 10 in Interpretation & Timing.

However, the skaters only have to have the majority of the bullets at a given level to qualify for the level, which is how I would suppose that judges would defend how they evaluate I&K.

The language of comunication 1677 is



I wish the ISU had a similar layout for singles. If they have it, I haven't seen it, and if they have it, the judges certainly don't apply it.

Click to expand...

I really really REALLY think you've made your point about I/K

There is a problem with stories – Odylie and Rothbart… or “woman and man in love and fight“ story. Those two stories were changing, in the beginning of the season it was a Swan Lake with Odylie and Rothbart, but finally for Grand Prix – a woman and man story was chosen. But after the Olympics Morozov once again persisted on Odylie and Rothbart saing that Lena is so close to Odylie, that it suits her perfectly. During Lena and Nikita‘s interview after the Olympics kids themself confirm that Nikita is Rothbart and it suits him perfectly and Lena is Princess Odylie (no, wait, Odylie was not a princess, Odetta was a princess, another misunderstanding made by kids about Swan Lake). On the ice we once again see a love story between Lena and Nikita – but it would mean that father Rothbart is a lover of his daughter?

Click to expand...

I think you are reading too much into what they said. Yes, that's a mixed up story and it's a wrong but the judges don't have to mark that because if we go into details than we should also say that if she was Odile than the music used was not the one used for Odile in the ballet.
What I see from that routine is the story of a "woman and man in love and fight", and they chose the black costumes and the Swan music because it suits more, and of course it's beautiful. A white costum for her I think it would've been too much honestly.

I don’t know if you have a possibility to watch video of their Olympic Individual free dance.
If you are a ballet lover – you certainly noticed that both Lena and Nikita have their heads too forward (which is not even a dance position and very far to a ballet position), no balletic Lena’s arms and fingers, a fist during movements, not extended free leg. All Lena, Nikita and Morozov say that it is not a ballet, but they use Swan costume, a ballet music and make some Swan/ballet movements.

Click to expand...

Of course it's not ballet, it's a 4 min Ice Dance performance. I like her arms and finger movements. I think it was there but of course I was not expecting Zakharova. I do agree about the not extended free leg, which is important in this kind of routine. Morozov should've worked a bit more there.
However, keep in mind that we're talking about a bronze medal performance. Of course there are many things that it could've been done better. The only major problem I have with them is that they are not keeping dance holds and skate close to each other. In an old video on youtube, I think it was 2012, she said to RT news that they have a tendency to lead, both of them, instead of being one couple. I'm afraid they haven't fixed that yet, better hurry up.

In moment when other dances will be available on YouTube Channel, it will be a very interesting comparison mainly in presentation of top 7 couples. If you will watch them one after another you will notice that while six couples (even C&L) are able to skate faster or gradate and increase the intension and depth of expression throught the dance, I&K are the only ones who skate in almost same speed, and loose dynamics towards the end (the less dramatic movements are the more dramatic facial expression is)…simply they were the most careful and tired couple.

Click to expand...

I have all of them already. You can find them. ;-)
About the speed I can only speak from what you can judge watching it on TV, which is not ideal when it comes judging the speed.
I think they were fast but lost some speed on the last 50 sec. (after the twizzels), only, before closing with the final lift which was a strong dramatic ending.
For the intensity of the music I can compare them with Anna&Luca because they chose Rossini, which I think it was a mistake. Rossini's music has this tremendous crescendo and I could see and feel that they were pushing too hard and didn't feel the light.

Anyway, just my impressions and thoughts.

By the way, is I&K going to the Worlds?

dorispulaski said:

I did a reference piece on ice dance PCS
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?36573-Ice-Dancing-PCS-Rules-2011-2012

The video references are from the 2011-2012 season, and the piece was written immediately after the GPF.

Here's the Timing and Interp part of the post
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ules-2011-2012&p=626496&viewfull=1#post626496

The rules have not been updated, so the piece is still valid for the 2013-2014 season, although some of the video links may not work if youtube has taken them down.

The one point you missed is to remember that dance, unlike pairs and singles, has ISU Communication 1677, Rule 611, which describes exactly how PCS are supposed to be calculated in ice dance, and has a bracket break down to describe exactly what a 9 - 10 PCS component ought to be.

Even for a 7.0 to 7.75 Timing & Interpretation PCS grade, Timing is supposed to be 100%.

Needless to say, judges don't usually follow their own rules on this.
Compare the language for 9 - 10 range
• skaters/music/nuances as one
•motivation from “heart”
•wide range of inspired movements, gestures
•skaters stay “in character” for the whole program
•exceptional ability to relate as one and to reflect music, theme
•superb expression of the music’s style and character
•timing: 100% correct expression of Rhythms

I would have a hard time giving I&K a mark between 9 and 10 in Interpretation & Timing.

Click to expand...

That is great, Doris! Thank you very much for this. I will need more time to absorb it all.
I heard many judges talking about judging system, but they never described criteria for components like you and they never producted anything similar to your post.
It would be good to know how many judges really know all of criterias.

I saw a criterias before and used them while describing Pechalat Olympic FD.
I didn’t know about that majority of bullets rule, which is my mistake. Thinking about it, it looks strange that it is sufficient to have majority of bullets (not all bullets) to get points between 9-10. In moment when a couple gets 10 points (which means that a component can’t be any better) and meet only majority of bullets (which means that they have still a space for improvement…but they already got the best possible mark)…that is not looking good in my eyes.

Another your note…judges have to judge immediately after skaters finish program. I think that for noticing all criterias – it needs to review program many times and concentrate on many things (which can’t be done in once), so judges have to make their decisions without exactly knowing if that criteria was there or not…they can only suppose it was/was not there.

But there are still questions…every bullets must be done in whole program or just in part or just in majority of program? If I realise that during the final part of program I&K got tired and didn‘t express the music gradation and a big drama. It would kill bullets of Exceptional ability to relate as one and to reflect music, theme and Superb expression of the music’s style and character. Timing is not there as we know. The bullet of Skaters stays in character for the whole program is killed by changing in character Swan/Woman and Rothbart/Man – all those four characters are behaving differently, playing such characters needs different emotions and all those characters are in different relationships to be put in one program. Motivation from heart can be very very subjective. Many people will persuade me that I&K skate from heart, but thanks to my life and dance expreriences I have honestly say that I can notice when a couple skates from heart and when not. (From my personal notes – some marks of dancing from heart is that skater is not concentrating for other people, only for music and partner – while expressing emotions to him/her is a part of program, a skater is not posing because he/she is overfilled with everything what touches music/story, also in these moments skater forget to control facial expression and his/her face is simply showing deep emotions without any relationship to be looking beautiful and make smiles to judges. Also the intensity of all moves is on 150% and all moves are finished. That is why I prefer Krylova’s Carmen more than Navka’s Carmen. Krylova was so much in the story and it was really a deep motivation from heart without thinking for even one second if she is looking well.) That is why I think that during Olympics FD only couples B&S, H&D, probably S&Z and maybe P&B and W&P had a motivation from heart. All other couples had enough space for thinking for judges and smiling to them which is not a motivation from heart. So, the only bullets which stays are Skaters/music/nuances in one – but it once again goes to that final dramatic music part which was not dramatic looking at I&K expresion. But some nuances were probably there. And last bullet Wide range od inspired movements, gestures – quite problematic – ballet movements could be taken into account, but thanks to Morozov we have quite identical last choreography part of the dance for Ave Maria, Ghost and now Swan Lake – is it wide range? So from 7 bullets, only 2 can be taken into account but not in full range…but I believe that still judges would find enough words for protecting their marks.

But it doesn’t solve a problem…no matter what marks I&K get…if I&K are in trouble with most of bullets of Interpretation/Timing mark…and many other couples don’t have the same problems and are matching with timing, expression, staying in character much better…why have I&K the third highest score in this segment when P&B, W&P, B&S, S&Z, H&D and probably even C&L have less problems to match all criterias (maybe except heart motivation in some cases)?