kwan article (US files protest) | Page 2 | Golden Skate

kwan article (US files protest)

Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Rgal post, crying baby, Rgirl ROFL.

Look, I know deductions for going over the time limit are serious. But as others have said, Michelle or her coach should have taken it just as seriously before Worlds as the USFSA is now.

I feel bad for Michelle. She's human. She miscalculated and didn't leave herself enough leeway with the music. But you can bet one thing: She will NEVER cut her music close again.

But Rgal's post is still funny, at least to me. And yes, I'd be ROFL over that post if the same thing had happened to Sasha and the same kind of brouhaha were going on.
Rgirl
 

Panther2000

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, the most important person involved in this mess is over it. Michelle has already moved on from this.It seemd in her interview that i read. She wasn't all ticked off & all. Her coach on the other hand from what I read. Some have said aht he was in the background talking to someone looking really pissedoff. I belive that Michelle is focusing on her skate tomorrow. & Just leaving that mess on the floor where it belongs. Frankly, I think that they should just drop the protest all together. If the Ref is wrong & the add back the points. From what I have read that moves her back into 2 where she was origianlly( All the Judges had her in 1st. It was the ref who changed the placements & put her into 2nd at the time. Even the judges were confused at what was going on .) but, if she is moved back into 2nd if she wins any medal at all, It is tarnished. The basher & reporters will say that the FS community is playing favorites & giving her special treatment. If she stays in 4th place if she wins any medal at all, then it will be without anyone claiming she got special treatment.

I am just hoping she comes out kicking tomorrow. Any medal or not.

regardless of whatever the outcome will be. She already has a chapter in the History books of Figure Skating.
 

thvudragon

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
emuffy35 said:
At the GPF in Co. Spr., the scores of the last and next to last dancers were accidentally reversed. Once those scores are shown, they canNOT be changed. Period. That's what they said.

So, why is the USFS bothering to protest Kwan's music length?
What? That's not true at all. Delobel and Schoenfelder's CiSt was scored as L4, a nonexistant level and was thusly given no value. This was changed AFTER the score was posted. It was changed to the correct L3. They were BEHIND D&L until the score was changed after already shown. What you are saying makes absolutely no sense at all.

TV
 

lovespirals

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Emmaly said:
The music timing starts when she first moves her body and stops when she ends and hits her final pose! there was a new rule brought in this year or last that at the end of a short program you must come to a complete stop!! no gliding to end or they will keep timing till you stop moving!! she did end after her music even i could hear it when i watched it!! im sure if they re timed the music it would end at 2:40 but she did not end at the exact time her music stopped!! IMHO she shouldnt cut her music that close! you would think she would give herself a couple seconds leeway just in case something like this happened!! I think she is shocked to find herself in 4th as well!!

I agree with your post. Maybe USFSA should have something about to her before because she had the same problem with this program last year with not ending with the music. The international judges overlooked it last year but since this is a repeat program took opportunity to nail her on it this year it seems to me.

I think she can come back for gold.
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
What happened last year..

Is not a defense in my opinion. This is ONE thing (the time rule) that is not nearly as subjective as all the other things we debate around here. If Michelle's SP went over the time limit, even by a half second last year, on multiple occassions and wasn't deducted, that doesn't make it right. And I highly suspect she knows that, and respects the decision if in fact, the time keeping was correct.

Let's compare this to false starts in swimming or track/field as an example. If an elite T&F person who is a contender for Oly Gold (or a local High School comp for that matter) "gets away" with a few false starts from time to time, do we really think that athlete believes they can get away with it all the time??? I seriously doubt that. The more likely scenario that I envision is a discussion between athlete and coach along these lines. "wow - I think your start was pushing it. We got away with it this time, but we MUST work on your starts so they are perfect. We can't count on this at X next competition."

I'm not suggesting that Michelle has or hasn't "gotten away" with a time fault before because I don't know. All I AM saying is that if time faults or potentials for faults DO exist, it's up to Michelle and her team to address it. It is totally not fair to accuse the judges or the time keeper for "WuzRobbed."

DG
 

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Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Doggy.........I understand the point you are trying to make, and rules are rules, that I understand, but I don't think a false start at a swimming or track meet is the same as a 2 sec. timing issue at a skating event............42
 

Doggygirl

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Hey Show...

This time rule is very interesting to me since the "rules" in FS most often talked about and debated vigorously (and rightly) are somewhat subjective. This one seems very straight forward to me. BTW, I have really enjoyed your posts since joining Thinner - so this is all meant in the spirit of nothing more than a lively debate. I probably didn't have to say that, but you know.....

Anyway, this is ONE FS rule that seems pretty objective. The time limit for the SP is 2:40. .1 deduction on both scores (don't know what Cop rules were, or could be in the future). If deductions for being 2 seconds over this rule are not appropriate, then where do you draw the line? At 2:43? At 2:57? At 3:05? Where?

Maybe the "false start" example wan't a good one. How about gymnastics where there is a specific boundry for the floor exercise. The boundry is the boundry. There is a mandatory deduction for stepping out. Doesn't matter if you step out by an inch or a mile. I also suspect that there are time boundaries on those routines as well, but I don 't know that for sure. I'm sure curious now so if no one else posts back on that, I will search a bit once my week long FS Junky Addiction is behind me LOL!

Time limits on programs are not unusual in this type of sport. I just wonder if we all are caught up in the subjective stuff so much that we can't really relate to what is one of the relatively few (that I've heard about anyway), completely objective rules of the game.

DG
 

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Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Hey Doggy.........I love a good debate.....:D Anyway, the gymnastic example is a good one, partly because the stepping out of bounds is always docked. But I have never seen or heard of another incident where a skater in a premier event has been docked for such a small infraction, that really doesn't add or detract from the content of the program. I have seen many skating performances where time infractions have been made, but I have never seen or heard of a deduction........this seems very odd and a big "calculated" to me........42
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Panther, that was a great post! More power to Michelle!

Show, re the question about not having seen the time deduction applied before, as I said on another thread, at least in the US, we never see all the skaters. And except for the top skaters, do we even question why deductions were made as long as the scores and placements look reasonable? I know I've seen competitions where a piece of costume has dropped to the ice off one of the top skaters or teams and the deduction was made. Those weren't questioned.

I think we would do ourselves well to ask ourselves the following: If it was a top-ranked Japanese or Russian skater whose placement was changed because of a time deduction, would there be this much controversy? I'm sure the Japanese or Russian Federation would file an appeal. Would we say those federations were doing the right thing? Would we say there was a conspiracy?

Maybe there is something *going on.* I don't know. But I still think it's worth thinking about whether all the controversy is because of what happened or who it happened to.
Rgirl
 

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think most people who watch figure skating, the casual fan and the skating expert both alike can appreciate deductions for a splat on the ice, a popped jump, a missed element, etc. But at a major event, a large and meaningful deduction taken after a clean skate for a two second infraction that is rarely if ever given, is one for the books..........regardless who it has happened to....42
 

rpiche

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 24, 2004
1. Just because the USFS is appealing doesn't mean that it will be correct.

2. Since we didn't see it, we can't say for sure how long the program was.

3. Like someone said ealier, just check it again. If her tme was over, then let the scores be what it is. If not give more what she deserved.

4. All federations are allowed to appeal, can't they. No one (Michelle or USFS) is claiming foul or she was robbed. If she broke the rules, then they have to do it.

5. Unless I read the reports wrong, the judges didn't have anything to do with the deductions, it was the officials / timekeeper that made the deductions.
 

Ximena

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Just to clarify about Plush combo, he did it the first time, and very well at SLC Olympics, then he did it at Worlds 2003 but his flip was a little weird and he has done it again this time. I think he did at the GPF in Russia but I'm not sure...

About Michelle, I really need to see that performance, a question though, even withouth the time deduction, wasn't the 5.2 too low? I know it was 5.1 but I'm adding the time deduction
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
One big problem here:

I would like very much to believe that Kwan is being treated fairly on this, but ...

This _is_ the ISU we're talking about, an organization whose officials I trust approximately as far as I could throw a dump truck. They gone overtime to earn the distrust and disrespect of fans.

Just about anything they do is suspect to me, and any out-of-the-air deduction like this is suspicious, regardless of who gets hit.
 

cianni

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
cianni

Im with you on this one. Look who got hit along with the other hold ups and put downs. This is the worst Worlds Ihave ever seen. The judging overall has been unbelievable.
 

Ximena

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
In Eurosport they just said that from three different sources, she was count 2:42
 

Linny

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 13, 2003
All very interesting points. Got a few to contribute:

1. I'm surprised that the rule doesn't refer to the length of the music itself, rather than the length of the movement of the skater. It would seem obvious that sometimes the skater can't hear the music and would have no idea where the music ended.
2. In dressage (that's like figure skating on horseback), the rule refers to the length of the music. Of course, there is an unknown in this: the horse. If applause at the end of a program make the horse move, they apparently don't want to penalize the program. They do, however, penalize the single movement - the final halt - if the horse wasn't immobile for a second. In dressage, it is also bad form to clap until the program is completely done.

This final point is most important:
In a very recently televised contest, one team took the ice, knowing full well that they couldn't win the gold. They still provided us all with one of the best performances yet seen. Definitely an historic ocassion. Perhaps Michelle will go down in history has the skater who has performed the most extraordinary none gold winning performances ever? I'll be glued to the TV screen.

Linny
 
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