kwan article (US files protest)

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Unlike some people, I don't think the USFS are being babies about this. They are just asking for it to be re-timed. If she did go over, then ok...on to the LPs...if she wasn't then the .2 points should be given back and the oridinals re-done to see where MK stood.
And it is a big deal considering MK could be anywhere from 2nd to 4th...if she's 2nd then she's striking distance from the gold...if she's 4th, she has to fight to go on the podium. That's why the USFS just wants to make sure the timing deduction is justified.

IMO, I think it's good that a federation is looking out for the interest of one of their skaters.

[RealtorGal]

Originally posted by VIETgrlTerifa
IMO, I think it's good that a federation is looking out for the interest of one of their skaters.

You mean one of its biggest MONEYMAKERS. I doubt they really care about Michelle at all--unfortunately.

"We've been seeing a lot of 5/4s (splits) lately, but I like them in my favor."
~~~Michelle Kwan on her short program results at SLC Olympics.

That is an interesting quote you've got there. Sometimes it just DOESN'T go in her favor!

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Well, whether or not they care for Kwan, their request for the timing of her performance be evaluated isn't an unreasonable one...especially if it deals with the placement a skater is in before the LP.

Oh, and my sig isn't really part of this discussion, but since you brought it up...you are right, it doesn't always go her way, but 5/4 splits aren't what this issue is about.

[show 42]

At the GPF in Co. Spr., the scores of the last and next to last dancers were accidentally reversed. Once those scores are shown, they canNOT be changed. Period. That's what they said.

So, why is the USFS bothering to protest Kwan's music length?

Hi Muffy, welcome to GS.......Anyway........scores may not be changed, but outcomes sure can be changed.....SLC and the pairs competition comes to mind.......two Oly gold medalists winners?

42

[Emmaly]

The music timing starts when she first moves her body and stops when she ends and hits her final pose! there was a new rule brought in this year or last that at the end of a short program you must come to a complete stop!! no gliding to end or they will keep timing till you stop moving!! she did end after her music even i could hear it when i watched it!! im sure if they re timed the music it would end at 2:40 but she did not end at the exact time her music stopped!! IMHO she shouldnt cut her music that close! you would think she would give herself a couple seconds leeway just in case something like this happened!! I think she is shocked to find herself in 4th as well!!

[Rgirl]

Rgal post, crying baby, Rgirl ROFL.

Look, I know deductions for going over the time limit are serious. But as others have said, Michelle or her coach should have taken it just as seriously before Worlds as the USFSA is now.

I feel bad for Michelle. She's human. She miscalculated and didn't leave herself enough leeway with the music. But you can bet one thing: She will NEVER cut her music close again.

But Rgal's post is still funny, at least to me. And yes, I'd be ROFL over that post if the same thing had happened to Sasha and the same kind of brouhaha were going on.
Rgirl

[Panther2000]

Well, the most important person involved in this mess is over it. Michelle has already moved on from this.It seemd in her interview that i read. She wasn't all ticked off & all. Her coach on the other hand from what I read. Some have said aht he was in the background talking to someone looking really pissedoff. I belive that Michelle is focusing on her skate tomorrow. & Just leaving that mess on the floor where it belongs. Frankly, I think that they should just drop the protest all together. If the Ref is wrong & the add back the points. From what I have read that moves her back into 2 where she was origianlly( All the Judges had her in 1st. It was the ref who changed the placements & put her into 2nd at the time. Even the judges were confused at what was going on .) but, if she is moved back into 2nd if she wins any medal at all, It is tarnished. The basher & reporters will say that the FS community is playing favorites & giving her special treatment. If she stays in 4th place if she wins any medal at all, then it will be without anyone claiming she got special treatment.

I am just hoping she comes out kicking tomorrow. Any medal or not.

regardless of whatever the outcome will be. She already has a chapter in the History books of Figure Skating.

[thvudragon]

Originally posted by emuffy35
At the GPF in Co. Spr., the scores of the last and next to last dancers were accidentally reversed. Once those scores are shown, they canNOT be changed. Period. That's what they said.

So, why is the USFS bothering to protest Kwan's music length?

What? That's not true at all. Delobel and Schoenfelder's CiSt was scored as L4, a nonexistant level and was thusly given no value. This was changed AFTER the score was posted. It was changed to the correct L3. They were BEHIND D&L until the score was changed after already shown. What you are saying makes absolutely no sense at all.

TV

[lovespirals]

Originally posted by Emmaly
The music timing starts when she first moves her body and stops when she ends and hits her final pose! there was a new rule brought in this year or last that at the end of a short program you must come to a complete stop!! no gliding to end or they will keep timing till you stop moving!! she did end after her music even i could hear it when i watched it!! im sure if they re timed the music it would end at 2:40 but she did not end at the exact time her music stopped!! IMHO she shouldnt cut her music that close! you would think she would give herself a couple seconds leeway just in case something like this happened!! I think she is shocked to find herself in 4th as well!!

I agree with your post. Maybe USFSA should have something about to her before because she had the same problem with this program last year with not ending with the music. The international judges overlooked it last year but since this is a repeat program took opportunity to nail her on it this year it seems to me.

I think she can come back for gold.

[Doggygirl]

Is not a defense in my opinion. This is ONE thing (the time rule) that is not nearly as subjective as all the other things we debate around here. If Michelle's SP went over the time limit, even by a half second last year, on multiple occassions and wasn't deducted, that doesn't make it right. And I highly suspect she knows that, and respects the decision if in fact, the time keeping was correct.

Let's compare this to false starts in swimming or track/field as an example. If an elite T&F person who is a contender for Oly Gold (or a local High School comp for that matter) "gets away" with a few false starts from time to time, do we really think that athlete believes they can get away with it all the time??? I seriously doubt that. The more likely scenario that I envision is a discussion between athlete and coach along these lines. "wow - I think your start was pushing it. We got away with it this time, but we MUST work on your starts so they are perfect. We can't count on this at X next competition."

I'm not suggesting that Michelle has or hasn't "gotten away" with a time fault before because I don't know. All I AM saying is that if time faults or potentials for faults DO exist, it's up to Michelle and her team to address it. It is totally not fair to accuse the judges or the time keeper for "WuzRobbed."

DG

[show 42]

Doggy.........I understand the point you are trying to make, and rules are rules, that I understand, but I don't think a false start at a swimming or track meet is the same as a 2 sec. timing issue at a skating event............42

[Doggygirl]

This time rule is very interesting to me since the "rules" in FS most often talked about and debated vigorously (and rightly) are somewhat subjective. This one seems very straight forward to me. BTW, I have really enjoyed your posts since joining Thinner - so this is all meant in the spirit of nothing more than a lively debate. I probably didn't have to say that, but you know.....

Anyway, this is ONE FS rule that seems pretty objective. The time limit for the SP is 2:40. .1 deduction on both scores (don't know what Cop rules were, or could be in the future). If deductions for being 2 seconds over this rule are not appropriate, then where do you draw the line? At 2:43? At 2:57? At 3:05? Where?

Maybe the "false start" example wan't a good one. How about gymnastics where there is a specific boundry for the floor exercise. The boundry is the boundry. There is a mandatory deduction for stepping out. Doesn't matter if you step out by an inch or a mile. I also suspect that there are time boundaries on those routines as well, but I don 't know that for sure. I'm sure curious now so if no one else posts back on that, I will search a bit once my week long FS Junky Addiction is behind me LOL!

Time limits on programs are not unusual in this type of sport. I just wonder if we all are caught up in the subjective stuff so much that we can't really relate to what is one of the relatively few (that I've heard about anyway), completely objective rules of the game.

DG

[show 42]

Hey Doggy.........I love a good debate.....:D Anyway, the gymnastic example is a good one, partly because the stepping out of bounds is always docked. But I have never seen or heard of another incident where a skater in a premier event has been docked for such a small infraction, that really doesn't add or detract from the content of the program. I have seen many skating performances where time infractions have been made, but I have never seen or heard of a deduction........this seems very odd and a big "calculated" to me........42

[Rgirl]

Panther, that was a great post! More power to Michelle!

Show, re the question about not having seen the time deduction applied before, as I said on another thread, at least in the US, we never see all the skaters. And except for the top skaters, do we even question why deductions were made as long as the scores and placements look reasonable? I know I've seen competitions where a piece of costume has dropped to the ice off one of the top skaters or teams and the deduction was made. Those weren't questioned.

I think we would do ourselves well to ask ourselves the following: If it was a top-ranked Japanese or Russian skater whose placement was changed because of a time deduction, would there be this much controversy? I'm sure the Japanese or Russian Federation would file an appeal. Would we say those federations were doing the right thing? Would we say there was a conspiracy?

Maybe there is something *going on.* I don't know. But I still think it's worth thinking about whether all the controversy is because of what happened or who it happened to.
Rgirl

[show 42]

I think most people who watch figure skating, the casual fan and the skating expert both alike can appreciate deductions for a splat on the ice, a popped jump, a missed element, etc. But at a major event, a large and meaningful deduction taken after a clean skate for a two second infraction that is rarely if ever given, is one for the books..........regardless who it has happened to....42