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Thread: The Time Rule

  1. #16
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Shen and Zhou might have gone on after their music stopped, but the whole thing was still under the time limit. Idon't know.

    But the question I still have is, how is it possible that neither Michelle nor her coach, choreographers, advisors, etc., etc., etc., never sat down and timed the music to see how long it was? She has been performing to this same cut of music for two years. Why is it suddenly longer than it was all the other times that she has skated to it? Do CD players run slow in Germany?

    Mathman

  2. #17
    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Hi Mathman..

    You have been SO incredibly nice to me since I joined Goldenskate several months ago. You are also our Logical, Rational Mathman around here, and there is clearly something I'm not getting LOL. I have to believe a bunch of people are BARFING in their own throwns right now because I can't seem to stop myself from expressing my thoughts and understandings about this issue at least 5 billion time. (the excuse I will use is that repeating my opinion on this topic beats the cr@p out of cleaning my kitchen!!)

    I don't think this issue has anything to do with the length of the recorded music. From what I understand it has everything to do with the moment the skating begins (I assume this means blade movement on the ice) and the moment the performance ends (blade movement stops). If I've got this right, the length of the recorded music has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

    PLEASE someone tell me what I'm NOT getting right about this so I can sleep well tonight, SPOIL myself early tomorrow on Eurosport Audio with the aid of strong coffee, and then drink myself silly with Dick and Peggy starting at 3:30PM CST tomorrow afternoon.

    (means it LOL)

    DG

  3. #18
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    Originally posted by show 42
    Jan Hoffman........man, his name sure pops up a lot, especially when a U.S. skater is involved........it was his swing vote that gave Oksana the gold over Nancy..........hmmm..........42
    I wouldn't say that it was his vote that gave the gold to Oksana. That's only what CBS wanted people to believe. I believe the line went: 'With four western judges going for Nancy, and four eastern judges going for Oksana, that left the decision up to Jan Hoffman of Germany'.

    It all came down to media representation. It didn't come down to Hoffman alone, it came down to Hoffman and four other judges. Jan seems to be a great judge who holds true to his artistic beliefs, especially when looking at how BronzeisGolden pointed out that he marked Michelle ahead of Tara in Nagano. :D

  4. #19
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    Thanks for your input, Mike. I drug out my Oly 94 tape again, and watched the part where a diagram was displayed showing how the swing vote for artistry went to Oksana. It clearly showed that Jan Hoffman was the judge who went with Oksana over Nancy. Now I don't know how close to the actual truth this presentation was, and perhaps the media was coloring up the truth a bit, but his name was mentioned. Not to diss Jan, ( I did enjoy his skating very much, and although I love Robin, personally thought the Oly Gold should have gone to him.) 42

  5. #20
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    Doggygirl, you ain't missin' a thang. You've got it right.

    If any part of the body moves through space, the program has started.

    The program continues going as long as any part of the body is moving through space.

    The program ends when the skater comes to a complete stop.

    The music is, just as you said, used as a marker for the skater.

    For the SP, the time is 2:30 with 10 seconds of leeway. So the longest you can move in the SP without a deduction is 2:40. The referee apparentely timed Michelle at 2:42, which is 2 seconds over the point at which deductions are taken.

    Get your rest, Doggygirl. You've got it right. You've got some day tomorrow. Can you train the doggies to sit and watch Worlds?
    Rgirl

  6. #21
    Rinkside
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    Interpret them as you please.

    http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_rules/rule...ram_timing.htm

    Section SSR 15.00 contains the rules describing how those time requirements are interpreted. _



    Timing of a skater’s program always commences when the skater first begins to move or skate, which is not always at the same time as_ the music starts (SSR 15.06)._ Timing continues until skater comes to a complete stop at the end of the program.

    http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&...6768%40gmu.edu

    The ISU Special Regulations Figure Skating states in rule 305:

    "The time must be reckoned from the moment the skater begins to move or to skate
    until arriving at a complete stop at the end of the program. If competitor/s fail
    to finish the short
    program within the time limit, there should be a 0.1 deduction in the marks for
    required elements and presentation for up to every 10 seconds in excess. The
    timekeepers must inform the
    referees who must then advise the judges of the number of seconds in excess."

  7. #22
    Busted sarahmistral's Avatar
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    I'm almost afraid to weigh in on this one, though I'm proud of goldenskate; the flap this has caused is really cataclysmic on other forums (and not even necessarily skater-specific forums...will not name names, but some of you can guess), and it's-a-gettin' UGLY:D Anyhow, I just watched Michelle's TFB, beautiful, smooth, polished, but not going for the jugular like Sasha, though to be fair, it's hard to compare because the programs and their respective musical selections express different overall feelings. How long was she moving? From my Windows Media Player, movement starts at 0:01 and goes to roughly 2:43-44 (the final spin ends around 2:39-40 and AFTER it comes the step into the final pose, and the last movement is with the arms and the torso).... It stinks, it's a really tough break and you hate to see it happen to someone as gracious, graceful and hardworking, but as Rgirl said, that ain't never happenin' to Shelly again. They did cut it close for a piece with such an open ending (the clearly audible part of the music ends abruptly AT 2:40!).

    I've officially pulled an all-nighter following all this stuff! Looking forward to my morning tryst with my new lover Eurosport (ROFLMAO Dollygirl)...I have NO nails left.

    Sarah

  8. #23
    Keeper of La Khok's Tutus Doggygirl's Avatar
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    Sarahmistral...

    LOL on your new lover! I'm lovin' on Eurosport myself this morning. Isn't it great?

    I can't even imagine the Kaffufal (favorite new word LOL!) that must be going on at some of the boards over the time deduction.

    DG

  9. #24
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    Well, I've been listening to the event ofn Raisport and watching on CBC and some idiot(s) there has been blowing a horn during the performances! How do they expect ehr to hear her music and be perfectly on time with that being allowed to go on. I understand Jan Hoffmann was just trying to do his job but what a time to get picky with the rules. That .2 looks like the difference b/w 2nd and 4th in the SP. From 2nd she could win the gold but not from 4th (at least, not likely). I don't blame USFSA for protesting.

  10. #25
    Rinkside
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    Rules are rules. Now that I know the time limit is 2:30 +/- 10 secs the more I think the penalty was called for. Just because someone is an icon or a superstar doesn't mean they have an immunity to rules. I was quite surprised that Michelle thought it was silly. And even if her music was under 2:40 mins, she should finish WITH the music. It looks so much better and shows that the skater has musicality.
    Besides, if they let this go, all skaters will start to skate over the time limit! You'll have someone skating 2:50 mins, 3:00 mins, etc. See my point? Rules are made for a reason, so respect it.
    Michelle has gotten away with so many deductions in the past because of her reputation, it's time someone acted fairly.
    Last edited by RoselynBach; 03-27-2004 at 11:59 PM.

  11. #26
    On Edge Piel's Avatar
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    So, should the name of the program be changed from "The Feeling Begins" to "The Feeling That Wouldn't End"?:D :D

  12. #27
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    There is such a rule, and Sarah Hughes was dinged for that violation in her sp either worlds 2000 or a 2000 GP event?

    I have been worrying about Michelle's program being dinged for the same thing since last year. The music ending of TFB is rather soft, it is not easy to hear the music ending over the audience noise.

  13. #28
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    I believe Ina & Zimmerman's SP to Kodo Drummers ended after the music with a long glide.

    Is there a penalty for just posing at the end of the music? On several occasions, you can see skaters holding in that last final pose while they wait for the last note of their music. That's more annoying to me then deliberate choreography that ends 1 or 2 seconds after the music.

    Anyway, I'm sure Team Kwan and all the other team's will be cutting their music short to ensure that the same mistake doesn't happen again.

    I haven't timed it. Was it 2:42 from when her skate first moved? If I recall correctly, T&D's Bolero was too long and they couldn't bear to cut the music - that's why they pose so long at the beginning before actually skating. Did the rule change to indicate the beginning of any movement?

  14. #29
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    Well, ABC said there is a rule. But the deduction is not manditory it is upto indevidual judges. With the anonymous judges you don't know who take deduction, who not.

    If you ask me the whole thing just smell fishy:

    1) I just checked Rosaleen's QA lady report. Miki also only finished 4 triples same as Michelle. The diff is she had 3/3 while MK not. But for a firsttime rocky placed before 5 times World champion with almost the same jump contents? That did not happen very often. Then why in long both skated the same program, MK finished 5 triples, MA 6 triples with 2 3/3s still placed behind MK? And we all watched from TV agreed with the placement. MK even steal some ordials from Arakawa. Only one judge placed Onda before MK.

    2) Then SP time deduction? and not even manditory one.

    3) Look at Arakawa presentation 5.9? 3 weeks work with TT? Not to mention she was the first to skate in final group, there were Sasha and Michelle to go both of them were capable beat her in presetation. Where is the room? May be judged under CoP whole season they forgot 6.0 need to leave room for late skaters?

    4) MK's SP even with 0.1 time violation 5.2 for technique, where dose 0.8 dection gone?

    I suspect Japanese federation had a 'politics' hand. Arakawa deserve her win. No problem, but the whole fisco looks like take MK out of running for medal. No doubt MK's own mistakes gave two 'GOOD Excuses' for judges to work towards that direction.

    Indevidual incidents seems reasonable, unrelated but if you look at the whole lady's event, just smell fishy to me. I'm glad USFSA file the protest request. Otherwise it would be Japan 2 medals, US one medal. Go figure!
    Last edited by mzheng; 03-28-2004 at 08:48 PM.

  15. #30
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    Rules are made for a reason, so respect it.
    This is true, but apparantly, this particular rule isn't always enforced........why now and why only Michelle? I'm sure she's not the only skater who skates past their music. I saw several do that just during the short program..........hmmm.......makes you wonder............
    :\ 42

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