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Thread: A signal, according to Callaghan

  1. #16
    Custom Title Ogre Mage's Avatar
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    Well, various reports stated that Shizuka's tech marks were pretty high considering she had an underrotated combo and didn't do enough rotations on her camel spin. Ando skated well but her presentation marks seem inflated. MK, however, got stuck with a time-limit violation. Perhaps that is an easier mistake to notice.

  2. #17
    TriGirl Rinkside
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    Rgal, I do see your point, and your twin made a point in another thread saying that we never see many of the skaters in any given competition so it is possible that this deduction is taken at times. Although, the Hersh (yeah, I know he's not always the best source of info) article says it is rarely enforced.

    I'm all for reform. Maybe I'm being cynical, but I don't think the ISU really cares about REFORM as much as what is good for them. Somehow, this is good for them.

    Well, crap, I sound like a conspiracy theorist just like my mom! I knew I'd end up just like her.

  3. #18
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    Ogre - good point about Shizuka's spins. Not a subjective call - simple matter of counting rotations. That's a pretty cut and dry rule that doesn't appear to have been enforced.

  4. #19
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    COP, I think not

    Originally posted by RealtorGal
    Ya know, when judges play favorites and gift the champ, everybody else screams "FOUL". Now, with the COP, it really looks like an honest effort is being made to clean up the sport. So, what is the current whine? That Michelle got penalized for violating the RULES.

    Isn't that just too ironic for words???

    Picture it: January 2004. A coffee shop in Zurich. Twelve skating judges meet to discuss their secret mission: to conspire against Michelle Kwan and make sure she doesn't win the title.

    Uh huh. Yeah, sure. That's exactly what happened.

    So I guess nameless-faceless-protected judges and this crappy incident constitutes valiant change, right... The COP gives the power to Speedy and his spin doctors. MK is not making this into a big deal and I hope all the skaters can just tune out this event.

    This, however, puts US figure skating against the ISU, and that is not fair for any of the skaters. The US lady competitors welfare comes first.

    Anyway, this is a bizare incident that rarely happens, so where can we find every skaters program timings? Is there an archive for anyone to challenge a time issue? There is no way to challenge the COP. A crook will find a way, so no scoring system will be fool proof. Nevertheless, my guest is this is an obvious "political" ploy to send a message to all skaters. Why? The ISU wanted a political drama. The ISU knew that team USA would challenge them. MK and all the other skaters are just being pulled into a power play. if MK did go over the time, then she should be dealt with, but really isn't this the thinnest excuse for a deduction .2? Also, in this case, even the judges are questioning the .2 deduction, did she deserve a harsh penalty? A non-judge is given total "veto" power, and bam a skater is down in fourth. Gee, I think judging improvement is a long way from Turino 2006.

  5. #20
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    Whooo, I'm just about the way this discussion turns, honestly I just don't get the whole USFSA-ISU drama, cause I can't see it. - Let's face it, if Michelle violated the time rule, it's absolutely ok that she is punished like any other skater. If she did it before - lucky girl, the jugdes didn't see it, but it doesn't deprive the judges of their right and duty to make deductions now, when they have detected this violation. Look at it: Michelle is no junior skater, she is a five time World Champion with an experienced coach and one of the most busiest choreographers in the World on her side. Actually I'd say such a mistake is incredibly stupid, if done by such a classy skater.

    It's funny to read all those comments defending Michelle, cause I don't think the judges' decision has to do anything with politics, if there was a violation of rule, the judges just had to make these deductions, no matter how reputated the skater is. Remember when Plushenko did this 3rd combo under CoP - he didn't get any points for that, he lost, even though he skated technically stronger than Sandhu - and rightly so. (And there wasn't even half the drama about it :D ) It would be just completely unfair to make exceptions for the higher ranked skaters, if the rest of the field including much less experienced skaters have to follow the rules strictly.

    Now about all those speculations of messages given to Michelle and the whole time violation thing being detected only at Worlds: I think Michelle should take herself by her own nose with this. Ok, she skated that programe before, but only at the well-paid so called "cheesefests" (btw can anybody explain to me why these competitions are called this way?), where jugdges for sure tend to be more loose towards correct ruling and U.S. nationals, where judges for sure are not really looking for mistakes of their own skaters, but very understandably are mostly looking for good performances of their own skaters which might enable them to win some medals at worlds. - (On the other hand with that it's also the USFSA judges, which can be blamed for not detecting this earlier. )
    Finally you can say the reason why this violation has not been detected earlier, was due to the fact that Michelle not doing the GP-series once again. And what's the message SHE gave to the judges by this: "look, I'm a 5-time worldchampion, I don't need to show up at those events, I'll go to U.S. Nats and to Worlds to get my title back, just leave me alone with anything else." - Sorry, I'd loved to see Michelle getting her title back last year and the way she skated there and also I completely understood, why she didn't do the GP last year, but doing that twice in a row looks really kind of arrogant to me. :(
    I don't think the judges made these deductions for the purpose of giving a message to Michelle, they just had to do so after detecting the time violation. However, I don't think they were absolutely not unlucky to do so, with Michelle not skating in the GP-series once again, cause the side effect of the whole thing is of course a bitter conclusion for Michelle: try to show your programes to the judges not only at U.S. Nats and Worlds.

    Now about rules: in any sport, in any field where you rank people, you need rules on how to do this, in order to avoid discrimination. And if you have a SP & LP in figure skating you just need exactly a rule for the time of the programes, cause that's the major difference ot those parts of the competition: TIME! Can there be an excuse if these rules have been violated? NO! Cause then you would need other rules, stating excuses for violations and the framework within which violations of this rules should be allowed, which would actually mean even more rules.

    Just hope Michelle will have a great skate in the free, showing what she can do, when staying within the framework of the given rules and I sincerely wish she won't do anymore similar stupid mistakes again.
    Last edited by Evdokia; 03-27-2004 at 03:26 PM.

  6. #21
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    I only believe in conspiracy theories when it's one country (or a block of countries) against another. So, if both Michelle and Sasha got weak marks, I would believe it. Yet this did not happen. So no conspiracy as far as I am concerned.

    Ok, she skated that programe before, but only at the well-paid so called "cheesefests" (btw can anybody explain to me why these competitions are called this way?),
    I think it's "cheese" as in cheesy, corny.
    Last edited by Ptichka; 03-27-2004 at 01:03 PM.

  7. #22
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    Ah, what message are they sending now? They put her above Sasha in the FS...so I'm thinking the "you must retire" assumption was completely wrong. :D

    Also, the SP is never skated at Cheesefests, just the long. I believe this is only the fourth time she's done "The Feeling Begins" SA 2002, Nats 2003 and 4, Worlds 3003 and 4. Okay, five. (this is why I teach English...)

    Laura

    PS I'd love to see Michelle do at least two GPs. That would be fab.

  8. #23
    Procrastinating b/c of Worlds
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    Originally posted by tharrtell
    Ogre - good point about Shizuka's spins. Not a subjective call - simple matter of counting rotations. That's a pretty cut and dry rule that doesn't appear to have been enforced.
    Arakawa had exactly 8 revolutions, meeting the requirement but barely. She didn't deserve a deduction on that spin.

    TV

  9. #24
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    Callahan's comment about Michelle really disappointed me. Can he think of something not this unpleasant to say? Why int. judges want Michelle to retire particularly? She, Sabestyen, and Arakawa are about same age, why does Michelle have to retire?
    Michelle is not the only "rich" eligible skater in US.

  10. #25
    bugs are smarter than we are bronxgirl's Avatar
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    Just as we say here on GS that a nasty post about a skater or another poster reflects more about the original poster, Callaghan's nast comments reflect more about himself than about MK. Too bad he's taken away from some of Arakawa's hard earned glory and demeaned himself.

  11. #26
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    Originally posted by Ptichka
    I think it's "cheese" as in cheesy, corny.
    Ptichka, thanks for the explanation.

  12. #27
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    Originally posted by bronxgirl
    Just as we say here on GS that a nasty post about a skater or another poster reflects more about the original poster, Callaghan's nast comments reflect more about himself than about MK. Too bad he's taken away from some of Arakawa's hard earned glory and demeaned himself.

    How has he taken away from Arakawa's skate? I don't hear anyone saying that Shizuka didn't deserve first in the LP. Read the article again, Callaghan's comments were made after the SP and before the LP. .(edited to add) His comments were most likely made before anyone knew why Michelle's SP scores were lower. The USFSA didn't know what was going on with the scores until they spoke to Jan Hoffman after the SP event was over.

    Besides, Shizuka wasn't with Tarasova long enough to say it was TT's coaching that did it. Shizuka has had her best year ever and most of it was spent under Callaghan's supervision. I would be more likely to give him credit for her ability this year than TT. We will see what TT can do next year for Shizuka
    Last edited by mpal2; 03-27-2004 at 03:41 PM.

  13. #28
    bugs are smarter than we are bronxgirl's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Shizuka has had her best year ever and most of it was spent under Callaghan's supervision. I would be more likely to give him credit for her ability this year than TT. We will see what TT can do next year for Shizuka.

    That was my point. It was as if he was puffing himself up as THE coach, "Look at me, I've coached the two women who have beaten Michelle", instead of givng the credit to Arakawa for her wonderful skate.

    sorry, I always have formatting problems...

  14. #29
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    I see what you're saying now. I'm not too worried about Shizuka, she'll be able to take care of herself. She's a tough gal.

  15. #30
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    Actually, Dick pointed out that she was over the time limit at Nat's by 3 seconds. I think Terry mentioned that Dick noticed it at Nat's, but the judges chose to ignore it.

    I agree that she should get the deductions since it's in the rule book, but I'm surprised that the required penalty is so harsh - 0.1 off each mark. I could see taking it off one of the marks, but not both. Also, that 5.1 for tech was low even assuming the deduction was taken.

    I'm glad MK was able to put in 2 great performances. If only she could to the qualifier over again.

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