Duhamel/Radford will continue and will be taking it one season at a time. So health permitting they are going to be competing for at least one more season.
I'd much rather have their honesty over the usual PC crap.
Battle for bronze medals in pairs and ice dancing
- Thread starter pangtongfan
- Start date
Duhamel/Radford will continue and will be taking it one season at a time. So health permitting they are going to be competing for at least one more season.
I'd much rather have their honesty over the usual PC crap.
I can understand P&B being a bit surprised at how high I&K's marks were in Sochi. That type of an honest reaction is more understandable. But some of us were surprised to read in that French article that Fabian said he had given more to ice dance than Charlie White and Scott Moir. That seems odd considering White & Moir have had a much bigger impact in the ice dance world than Fabian. He has certainly been around for longer and is older, but that doesn't equal greater influence.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Country
-
I wish the interview had included his explanation of his greater contributions.
So if D/W got their DWTS contract, and assuming V/M aren't there ... then it's open season on the title. It will be between P/B (looking for a career capper), C/L (looking to add to their European crown), I/K (gaining momentum) and W/P (looking to capitalize on absence of V/M to whom they were always 2nd). The rank outsider of the top throng of teams minus the top two are B/S at this point, they have a strong short dance but their free dance has been revealed to be far too simple compared with the other top teams. Heck, even W/P finished ahead of them and got a bigger (to my ears) ovation than they did in Sochi, and B/S were the home team! (Although I must say while I am not their fan, I took no joy in seeing Katya break down at the end of their FD and they looking crushed in the K&C afterward.)
Should be exciting to watch!
Should be exciting to watch!
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2013
Do you have a link to that article?
If what you said is true, it is indeed obnoxious. I guess it's hard for everyone to have a truly honest self-assessment.
Technically D/W and V/M have pushed the boundaries, for sure. But that's not what P/B were talking about. For the most part D/W's and V/M's programs lacked creativity and originality and it was the same recycled, un-inspired Zoueva crap year in and year out.
There's a broader issue at play here with Ice Dance becoming 'stroking into technical elements' because of how poorly IJS is being applied.
This is what, I believe, P/B were talking about and they were certainly right about that. At least they tried to show something different and interesting every year, whether it worked or not.
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2013
"Different" doesn't always mean good or that it's at a high standard. Marlie and Voir's themes may have been kind of boring for a while, but so is everyone else's. Very few couples have come up with consistently extraordinary lifts as they have. P&B are lucky to have won as many accolades as their talents have taken them. They also recycled the same moves frequently. They did a Chaplin program, how original. This is the go-to program for skaters who can't properly do drama. Their best program IMO is their Flamenco. Then they did a ... I forget, they were lucky to have beaten people like Weaver & Poje, because many other couples are far more talented than them. Then a Mummy program. Again, so original, no one has done it before! Stannick Jeannette already did The Little Prince years ago.
The criteria is 1) originality 2) creativity 3) execution, none of which P&B are masters of. Competent at times, enough to win a World medal, but also hindered by nerves and lost a couple of medals because of it.
Frankly, the judges have coddled them for far too long - just because they've been around a long time doesn't mean ****. I think W&P, C&L, I&K, even B&S have far surpassed them a long time ago and have rightfully been placed ahead of them.
As far as I know, none of their programs are anyone's favorite. At the very least, I haven't read any "Best ever" lists with their programs mentioned.
As far as originality this season goes to Hurtado and Diaz, Gilles & Poirier....
:thumbsup: Me too. And here comes the backlash
, only at GoldenSkate :disapp:I'm not sure that I agree 100% of what he said, but agree 90% of it.
I am glad he said it.
No but I'd rather have skaters take risks and make an attempt at something interesting than play it safe.
Whether you are using a piece of music for the first time ever in skating or for a 1436th time is completely irrelevant. It's what you do with it, how you relate to it, the concept you come up with. Virtue/Moir's only interesting and creative program IMO was to "Carmen" - arguably the most overused piece of skating music - because they offered a different and sophisticated take on it.
I think P/B had their share of misses - this season's FD being one - but at least they have always tried to develop and deliver a concept. They have always put effort into the presentation side of things and I have a lot of respect for them for that. Especially that it's now something that's really getting ignored in Ice Dance and in this respect, the sport is really moving backwards and Bourzat was right to highlight that - whether you liked his programs and performances or not.
Like Virtue/Moir's romantic programs, Pechalat/Bourzat always prefered comedy/funny/friendly programs. I'm not going to call that pushing boundaries. This is why I don't like ''Little Prince'' They are copying themselfs. Same idea, same movements, same lifts. Their choreography very predictable actually, If you are watch other dances from them. Squeeze all the technical elements in first 3 minutes and fill last 1 minute of the program with side by side easy holds, small jumps, running on ice...
http://youtu.be/302-syi45zg?t=3m35s (2011 FD-After the spin)
http://youtu.be/_VIXdhXcAWM?t=4m5s (2012 FD- After the spin)
http://youtu.be/zxi94RO8peY?t=3m52s (2013 FD-After the spin)
http://youtu.be/3hG_pUkPcg0?t=3m43s (2014 FD-After the spin)
Love their Flamenco OD from 2008, they tried something sexy for finnstep too. But other than that no they are not really that creative.
http://youtu.be/302-syi45zg?t=3m35s (2011 FD-After the spin)
http://youtu.be/_VIXdhXcAWM?t=4m5s (2012 FD- After the spin)
http://youtu.be/zxi94RO8peY?t=3m52s (2013 FD-After the spin)
http://youtu.be/3hG_pUkPcg0?t=3m43s (2014 FD-After the spin)
Love their Flamenco OD from 2008, they tried something sexy for finnstep too. But other than that no they are not really that creative.
It would certainly be interesting if the surprise is that NEITHER Virtue & Moir nor Davis & White attend Worlds! Up until now, all the discussion here is about what if one team doesn't attend, but what if both teams don't attend?
Here's the latest article on Davis & White from a couple days ago:
----
Davis, White yet to make decision on worlds
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/davis-white-yet-decision-worlds-220452215--spt.html
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
On the Art on Ice website, Virtue/Moir are not listed among the cast.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
If D/W and V/M end up skipping Worlds, that entire podium is up for grabs. I don't think I/K will get the some marks they did on home ice. As for pairs, it remains to be seen if V/T go or not. There may be more than once medal at play.
2007: Four Seasons - a bespoke, non-classical version.
2008: Craziness, which was electronic and edgy, not comic and charming.
2009: Circus - true, that one was more of a comic, audience pleasing program.
2010: Time/Requiem for a Dream. A misstep, because they were made to change the original music after the Masters. Stupid FFSG. But neither funny nor "friendly", whatever that's supposed to mean.
2011: Chaplin. I won't argue that this wasn't essentially Circus 2.0.
2012: The Pharaoh and his Mummy. Not intended as a comic program and I don't think it was one, either.
2013: Rolling Stones, some of it outside the generic skating catalog (=muzak Paint it Black)
2014: Little Prince. A hybrid program that's meant to be both contemplative and charming. Worked for some fans, not for others.
At least half of these programs don't fit your description of P/B's approach. It's fine to say that you don't care for their skating, or that what they do doesn't appeal to you, or that they've failed in presenting the concepts they were trying to convey. But to suggest that they deliberately do one-note programs is inaccurate and unfair. They have tried to do the exact opposite.
Meanwhile, V/M and especially D/W were mostly using ballroom, musicals and classical warhorses. I think P/B are justified in saying that they have put a greater effort into the conceptual side of their programs than most top teams, and that this is not something that the IJS really tries to reward. But then, the most interesting stuff is often done by the teams not on the podium. Like Hurtado/Diaz and Gilles/Poirier this season.
Leaving aside your characterization of their transitional movements and presentation of the programs, I see that you've chosen to conveniently overlook any scoring or transitional lifts near the end of their FDs, regardless of difficulty and fit with the program. As for the programs...
2007: Four Seasons - a bespoke, non-classical version.
2008: Craziness, which was electronic and edgy, not comic and charming.
2009: Circus - true, that one was more of a comic, audience pleasing program.
2010: Time/Requiem for a Dream. A misstep, because they were made to change the original music after the Masters. Stupid FFSG. But neither funny nor "friendly", whatever that's supposed to mean.
2011: Chaplin. I won't argue that this wasn't essentially Circus 2.0.
2012: The Pharaoh and his Mummy. Not intended as a comic program and I don't think it was one, either.
2013: Rolling Stones, some of it outside the generic skating catalog (=muzak Paint it Black)
2014: Little Prince. A hybrid program that's meant to be both contemplative and charming. Worked for some fans, not for others.
At least half of these programs don't fit your description of P/B's approach. It's fine to say that you don't care for their skating, or that what they do doesn't appeal to you, or that they've failed in presenting the concepts they were trying to convey. But to suggest that they deliberately do one-note programs is inaccurate and unfair. They have tried to do the exact opposite.
Meanwhile, V/M and especially D/W were mostly using ballroom, musicals and classical warhorses. I think P/B are justified in saying that they have put a greater effort into the conceptual side of their programs than most top teams, and that this is not something that the IJS really tries to reward. But then, the most interesting stuff is often done by the teams not on the podium. Like Hurtado/Diaz and Gilles/Poirier this season.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Country
-
I think all 3 teams have a style of their own, and I would not denigrate any of the 3 of them by characterizing them as one note.
For whatever reason, D&W's OD's/SD's have been more interesting (and appeared to me to have involved more thought) than their FD's. Giselle for a polka was brilliant, as was Bollywood, and the choreo of the not touching step sequence for A los Amigos (2007 SD) was really nice. (when the ISU says Tango is the dance of choice, unfortunately there is little to be done about the choice of music) While they did not do a great job of performing it, generally, their Happy Feet Charleston OD was very interesting, and very complex, too. And again, while I am not crazy about My Fair Lady, the work Charlie mishmashed all those cuts together to get the Finnstep part to be bubbly and comic certainly achieved what the ISU said they wanted for the FInnstep, and clearly took a lot of time and effort to produce. And while choosing to do the rhumba as a Jennifer Lopez (On the Floor) bar dance did not impress the judges, it wasn't your average choice of music, either.
I do not believe you can characterize D&W's 2008 Eleanor's Dream/Eleanor Rigby as either classical, a musical, ballroom or a warhorse.. However, I would note that at least 3 of those choices are distinct, and any team that has done all 3 of them has shown something beyond one note
V&M are the reverse. By and large, their OD/SD's don't seem to have interested them very much. This year's Louis Armstrong/Ella Fitzgerald number is my favorite of the bunch, second favorite their 2010 Farrucas flamenco number. They seem to be more interested in portraying a story than in portraying a rhythm/dance, which is perhaps why their FD's are more interesting to me than their SD's/OD's.
One certainly cannot say Pink Floyd (2009) is either classical, a musical or a warhorse. Hip, Hip, Chin, Chin by Club Des Belugas/Temptation by Diana Krall/Mujer Latina by Thalia isn't either, but I wish they did not reuse it as an SD the next year. I suppose you could call it ballroom.
But I would agree that P&B are not a one note team. I do wish they had done Time for 2010 the way they presented it at French Masters. What is it about Olympic years that causes teams to second guess themselves so much?
I loved their Flamenco with the fan in the 2008 season, but in general, their OD/SD's don't seem to have been given the level of thought they lavished on their FD's.
For whatever reason, D&W's OD's/SD's have been more interesting (and appeared to me to have involved more thought) than their FD's. Giselle for a polka was brilliant, as was Bollywood, and the choreo of the not touching step sequence for A los Amigos (2007 SD) was really nice. (when the ISU says Tango is the dance of choice, unfortunately there is little to be done about the choice of music) While they did not do a great job of performing it, generally, their Happy Feet Charleston OD was very interesting, and very complex, too. And again, while I am not crazy about My Fair Lady, the work Charlie mishmashed all those cuts together to get the Finnstep part to be bubbly and comic certainly achieved what the ISU said they wanted for the FInnstep, and clearly took a lot of time and effort to produce. And while choosing to do the rhumba as a Jennifer Lopez (On the Floor) bar dance did not impress the judges, it wasn't your average choice of music, either.
I do not believe you can characterize D&W's 2008 Eleanor's Dream/Eleanor Rigby as either classical, a musical, ballroom or a warhorse.. However, I would note that at least 3 of those choices are distinct, and any team that has done all 3 of them has shown something beyond one note
V&M are the reverse. By and large, their OD/SD's don't seem to have interested them very much. This year's Louis Armstrong/Ella Fitzgerald number is my favorite of the bunch, second favorite their 2010 Farrucas flamenco number. They seem to be more interested in portraying a story than in portraying a rhythm/dance, which is perhaps why their FD's are more interesting to me than their SD's/OD's.
One certainly cannot say Pink Floyd (2009) is either classical, a musical or a warhorse. Hip, Hip, Chin, Chin by Club Des Belugas/Temptation by Diana Krall/Mujer Latina by Thalia isn't either, but I wish they did not reuse it as an SD the next year. I suppose you could call it ballroom.
But I would agree that P&B are not a one note team. I do wish they had done Time for 2010 the way they presented it at French Masters. What is it about Olympic years that causes teams to second guess themselves so much?
I loved their Flamenco with the fan in the 2008 season, but in general, their OD/SD's don't seem to have been given the level of thought they lavished on their FD's.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
D/W's FDs since they moved up to the senior level: Polovtsian Dances, Eleanor's Dream/Eleanor Rigby, Samson and Delilah, POTO, Tango, Die Feldermaus, Notre Dame de Paris, Scheherazade. I think it is fair to characterize these as very safe choices (safe costumes, too - Meryl and her pretty princess dresses ). I don't fault them for going this way, since it clearly worked to their advantage and their goal as athletes is to win. But this discussion came up in relation to Bourzat's comments about what the top dance teams have focused on, and I think he has a case in arguing that he and Pechalat have put a greater effort into the creative side of their skating (including some of the ODs/SDs). I don't think either Pechalat or Bourzat would try to argue that any of the Olympic medalists are are not top-notch technically, but saying that the choice of material by these teams has been fairly conservative is a fair point.
Although considering I/K's least conventional choice was Ghost, perhaps that is for the best
). I don't fault them for going this way, since it clearly worked to their advantage and their goal as athletes is to win. But this discussion came up in relation to Bourzat's comments about what the top dance teams have focused on, and I think he has a case in arguing that he and Pechalat have put a greater effort into the creative side of their skating (including some of the ODs/SDs). I don't think either Pechalat or Bourzat would try to argue that any of the Olympic medalists are are not top-notch technically, but saying that the choice of material by these teams has been fairly conservative is a fair point. Although considering I/K's least conventional choice was Ghost, perhaps that is for the best
Yes, at least half of their free dances are happy/comedy/funny. (Same record as Virtue/Moir's romantic programs) They didn't do anything exotic like Bollywood, anything romantic like Umbrellas of Cherbourg, anything balletic like Black Swan, anything passionate like Je Suis Malade, anything classical/lyrical or anything pure dance like Tango,Waltz,Rhumba. I didn't suprise when they choice Little Prince theme. I can remember almost all lifts, positions and transitional movements, costumes from previous programs. Even happy tunes of music (!?) sound similar. Usually ice dancers only doing one funny/happy/comedy dances in their whole career. This doesn't mean Pechalat/Bourzat's 4 or 5 dances in almost same theme is pushing the boundaries of originality.
This is their Four Seasons. You can see their style in this dance. Same like Virtue/Moir's romantic style. If peoples are criticizing Virtue/Moir, why not Pechalat/Bourzat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-awG7RsEcE
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
Your reading comprehension sucks: I wrote at least half, not at most half. And "comedic/funny" is not a theme, it is such a broad label that if you try hard enough, you'd manage to fit just about anything you want there. Oh wait, you already have. "You can see their style in this dance"? I should hope so! Would you rather see someone else's style? Personal style does not imply lack of range.Thank you for admitting at least half of their free dances are happy/comedy/funny. (Same record as Virtue/Moir's romantic programs) They didn't do anything exotic like Bollywood, anything romantic like Umbrellas of Cherbourg, anything balletic like Black Swan, anything passionate like Je Suis Malade, anything classical/lyrical or anything pure dance like Tango,Waltz,Rhumba. I didn't suprise when they choice Little Prince theme. I can remember almost all lifts, positions and transitional movements, costumes from previous programs. Even happy tunes of music (!?) sound similar. Usually ice dancers only doing one funny/happy/comedy dances in their whole career. This doesn't mean Pechalat/Bourzat's 4 or 5 dances in almost same theme is pushing the boundaries of originality.
This is their Four Seasons. You can see their style in this dance. Same like Virtue/Moir's romantic style. If peoples are criticizing Virtue/Moir, why not Pechalat/Bourzat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-awG7RsEcE
I think there is enough call for ballroom and classical styles in ODs and SDs that it would make sense for some teams to skip it in their FDs. And if Black Swan is what you need as proof of any skaters' originality and range, that's pretty sad.
Doris makes fair, well-reasoned and thought out points. You make silly and biased ones ("I remember all their costumes"? Seriously?). That's why people pay attention to Doris even if they don't agree with her, and why I'm done discussing anything with you.
Don't be too offensive.
Attack to me not going to change their free dance history. I don't understand why you are comparing with me and Doris but this is cool, thank you My first language is not english so maybe I did some mistakes. I writed ''You can see their style in this dance'' so you can see what their comfort zone is. I writed ''I remember all their costumes from previous programs'' so I want to say they looked similar as lifts and positions. If even Buttercup didn't disagree lifts and positions/movements (I said in same sentence) so they are really alike. Maybe we can find some changes in costumes.
Also I writed Black Swan because this is a example, they didn't skated outside of their comfort zone. Yes again If even Buttercup didn't disagree other examples, this means they didn't really skated those themes or anything close, too. Maybe I'm not politically correct to Pechalat/Bourzat (their last season and don't have many medals) but If someone is trying to tell himself he gave this sport more than Virtue/Moir and Davis/White, he should be ready to that criticism. If they are really that creative, I'm sure we will hear a lot of them in future, don't worry.
Sounds like a tense battle to me! Maybe that's why P/B are returning, to take a stab at the world title?
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
P/B's most recent update was that they were entered by the FFSG, but had not yet decided if they would go or not. Assuming neither V/M nor D/W will be at Worlds, I would imagine that a shot at a world title would weigh heavily in favor of going.
Similar threads
