Battle for bronze medals in pairs and ice dancing

Ryan O said:

I can understand P&B being a bit surprised at how high I&K's marks were in Sochi.

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Me too, and I agree with that. However, the judges had no need to give I&K 6 point more in order to win the bronze. I mean 2 or 3 points would've been enough.

No but I'd rather have skaters take risks and make an attempt at something interesting than play it safe.

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I think the "play it safe" thing is often abused tbh.
It's good to try new things, be creative, original and push for more, but I would rather wish to see a beautiful double twist than a horrible triple twist. I would love to see a "simple" lift (which is quite difficult actually) rather than an acrobatic one.

Alba said:

Me too, and I agree with that. However, the judges had no need to give I&K 6 point more in order to win the bronze. I mean 2 or 3 points would've been enough.

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On another thread after the FD in Sochi, P&B were quoted as saying (I think it was Fabian to be precise) that Scott Moir & Charlie White haven't contributed as much to the discipline of ice dance as they have. So to answer Skater Boy's question, that's what some people were objecting to. Things can get lost in translation though since it was from a French article, so perhaps in English people misunderstood what they said. But P&B sounded pretty jaded after the FD in Sochi.

Ryan O said:

On another thread after the FD in Sochi, P&B were quoted as saying (I think it was Fabian to be precise) that Scott Moir & Charlie White haven't contributed as much to the discipline of ice dance as they have. So to answer Skater Boy's question, that's what some people were objecting to. Things can get lost in translation though since it was from a French article, so perhaps in English people misunderstood what they said. But P&B sounded pretty jaded after the FD in Sochi.

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In an article - translated and brought in another thread so I don't know if it's 100% accurate - they said about I&K something similar to how could I&K improve seven points just in one week.
I agree with that observation tbh, but my question is (assuming that the translation was accurate): I suppose they were implying that the judges were biased and wanted them to win the bronze right? While I understand the bias, I don't understand why the judges would give to I&K 7 points more than P&B just so they could win the bronze medal?

Alba said:

In an article - translated and brought in another thread so I don't know if it's 100% accurate - they said about I&K something similar to how could I&K improve seven points just in one week.
I agree with that observation tbh, but my question is (assuming that the translation was accurate): I suppose they were implying that the judges were biased and wanted them to win the bronze right? While I understand the bias, I don't understand why the judges would give to I&K 7 points more than P&B just so they could win the bronze medal?

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I think that judges just wanted to be save that nothing unexpected could happen.
As I know judges don’t have an opportunity to see technical base score so they don’t have any certain image of how high levels a couple got. And technical base value was always one of the biggest I&K’s weaknesses.

I&K technical base value in FD from last season moved from 34,2 to 38,70, GOE varied from +5,45 to +10,38. This season technical base in FD varied from 36,2 to 40,20, GOE from +7,66 to +10,31. The highest base score at TEB was 40,20 and GOE +10,31, but judges and technical specialist forgot to notice and marked Lena’s stumble in step sequence, so being more objective, score or GOE or both of it would be a little bit lower (and P&B would be silver in Paris). But still with usual technical score and component score (from 50,16 to 54,69) I&K gets this season – they wouldn’t be able to keep the Bronze Medal.

Judges already failed few times in moment when their effort for keeping I&K on first place or at least medal position was quite obvious. Last year Ghost program was critised by many people, it was simple program which had not much commom to programs of top couples. B&S Psycho program was better in every aspect, but at Europeans 2013 althought B&S had better levels in FD, judges gave higher components and as usual higher GOE to I&K, so the couple won free dance…but finally lost first place about 0,11 points. From judges mark it is obvious who they wanted to see on first place, but thanks to lower levels, I&K lost Gold Medal and European Title.
This season at NHK Trophy once again I&K got very good GOE and great components for FD, but low levels caused final fourth place behind Shibutanis.
And again at Europeans 2014 judges gave components like nothing bad like fall and “out of character“ step sequence would happen (more than 2 points higher than at TEB). And once again the couple missed planned Gold Medal about 1,10 points (and it was once again mainly because of lower levels - I&K got level 2 for step sequence and level 3 for twizzles).

So at the Olympics judges needed to give such GOE and components to be sure that even with lower levels I&K would stay on the third place. But this time surprisingly levels stayed high. Spin was OK, step sequence was for the first time marked level 4 (while all other times it was level 2 or 3) and even twizzles stayed level 4 (although it should be downgraded because of Nikita’s two piruettes during it).
Judges marks caused that a couple improved about 7 points in 5 days, not thanks to levels (they got 1,5 points more for level 4 step sequence in comparison with level 3 step sequence), but once again a couple rised in GOE about 3,78 points more and in components about 2,18 points more – that is 5,96 points more because judges decided so (althought twizzles were better in Team competition).
This caused that I&K got the second highest GOE in all lifts – so they should be the second best lift performers, which is funny, because in second lift Nikita was not stable at all and fourth lift was heavily looked.
110 points really looked like judges simply wanted I&K on third position no matter what.


Until Olympics season best SD:
P&B – 70,59, W&P – 70,35, C&L – 69,88, I&K - 69,54, B&S – 68,90, but being at one competition B&S overcome all teams
At Olympics SD:
I&K – 73,04, P&B – 72,78, B&S – 69,97, C&L – 67,58, W&P – 65,93
Until Olympics season best FD:
W&P – 104,88, I&K – 102,82, P&B – 102,48, C&L – 102,03, B&S – 99,90
(both W&P marks were at home Grand Prix, B&S best score was with a fall)
At Olympics FD:
I&K – 110,44, P&B – 104,44, W&P – 103,18, B&S – 102,95, C&L – 101,92

I&K improved in SD from Europeans about 3,48 points (Europeans SD was clean, Olympics SD had Lena’s stumble in non element…funny that some people here say that B&S with non synchro twizzles gets lower marks in everything and it is OK and “on place“, but Lena’s stumble and increased mark about 3,48 points is OK as well).
In FD I&K improved since their season best about 7,62 points which is a big jump if we take into account that we are in dance cathegory where marks are not changing so much and so often. No other couple made such improvement in marks – especially when season best was gotten with clean skate and suddenly with very similar skate (but with minor mistake in SD and shacky moment in twizzles and one lift in FD) points arised so much.
So I am not surprised that Fabian had an idea that I&K marks came unexpectedly and “from nowhere“.

Eh after the loss of their home grand prix event to Ilinykh/Katsalapov, one would think they had another game plan to beat them in Olympics. After all they lost almost every element GOE to I/K in France. Lucky for them I/K probably not going to skate good at worlds. They have two bad-one good competition pattern.

elif said:

Eh after the loss of their home grand prix event to Ilinykh/Katsalapov, one would think they had another game plan to beat them in Olympics. After all they lost almost every element GOE to I/K in France. Lucky for them I/K probably not going to skate good at worlds. They have two bad-one good competition pattern.

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Everybody (except V&M and D&W) looses GOE to I&K even in moments while this couple is doing mistakes.

Judging at TEB...it was one big "behind the scene" game, which had nothing to do with skating. There were happening things which would make another scandal and maybe even bigger like that one in French article.

sisinka said:

I think that judges just wanted to be save that nothing unexpected could happen.
As I know judges don’t have an opportunity to see technical base score so they don’t have any certain image of how high levels a couple got. And technical base value was always one of the biggest I&K’s weaknesses.

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Judges do know the tech base value of each program though. They do see all practices and know their programs. What remain to be seen it's the execution, and even after the performance they do have all the elements called so they would know right?
Just out of curiosity, as I said I do agree with P&B comment.

WeakAnkles said:

Not everything by Bergman is a classic. He made his share of mediocrities.

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Yup, I'd love to see a free skate to "The Silence". That film had no actual film score.

pangtongfan said:

I honestly have no idea what will happen with P&B with the judges. While I hope it doesnt happen it wouldnt even 100% shock me if they really got hammered for their post Sochi comments and finished right off the podium (not a prediction, but it wouldnt shock me either) .

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and knowing Worlds will be their last appearance, the judges will hammer them
no way will they give gold to a retiring team

anyanka said:

Yup, I'd love to see a free skate to "The Silence". That film had no actual film score.

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How about "You Can't Always Get What You Want"?

I remember reading in the forums people projected I/K not getting bronze because they're so unreliable in terms of how they skate - in that aspect, P/B are usually more consistent. When I/K are on their game they're great. When they're off... Not so pretty.

Personally, I was shocked at I/K's sudden rising - sure, in Sochi I did think they were better than P/B (and this is coming from a big P/B fan), but I didn't think they were six whole points better. I'm calling home field advantage on that huge difference - two or three points I could understand. Not six. And Fabian, though he may have worded it wrong, I think is correct to be shocked at their sudden raise in marks overall.

And it wouldn't surprise me at Worlds to not have P/B not get gold, but considering their Olympic marks and the fact that D/W and V/M are skipping worlds this year if not retiring altogether, it would come as a big shock to me for them not to at least get on the podium.

sky_fly20 said:

and knowing Worlds will be their last appearance, the judges will hammer them
no way will they give gold to a retiring team

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B&K 2003.. that is all.

It is not unheard of for an about to retire team or skater that failed to get a medal at Olympics for one reason or another when they might have been expected to medal to do well at Worlds, provided of course that they don't retire first.

1984 - Blumberg & Seibert, Underhill & Martini
1998 - Meno & Sand
2002 - Ina & Zimmerman
2006 - Petrova & Tikhonov

And Winkler and Lohse in their last season. Although they skated at home in Germany.

P/B's chance of beating I/K may come down to which judges are on the panel for the FD. If FRA is off and BLR, ISR, RUS and UKR are on, P/B could be lucky to get bronze, and if ITA and CAN are on the FD panel, P/B could be off the podium entirely.

If P&B are off the podium completely at this Worlds, a pig will fly across the sky in front of my house.

I don't think P&B are going to be hammered as badly as some people are predicting, even if they did make some comments about the judging after Sochi. Of course in ice dance you never know for sure what will happen, so I suppose anything is possible.

I'm more interested to see where W&P end up. This year should be the best chance for a medal so far in their careers - if they don't win a medal this year with both V&M and D&W absent, it will probably be a sign from the judges that they want them to retire.

Weaver/Poje are 24 and 27---in ice dance, that is a bit young to retire, and teams don't retire just because they haven't medaled yet. Remember, last year they lost momentum due to her injury. This year, IMO their tango FD probably wasn't the best choice for them.

W&P aren't old, but they're not young either. They've been skating together for 2 Olympic cycles, and there are other teams their age that retire sometimes. This Worlds may give some clues as to whether they want to stay in for another cycle or not. Yes they had an injury last year, but this year the judges have still not given them the marks they were expecting and often let other teams pass them each time they get close to the podium.

Ryan O said:

This Worlds may give some clues as to whether they want to stay in for another cycle or not. Yes they had an injury last year, but this year the judges have still not given them the marks they were expecting and often let other teams pass them each time they get close to the podium.

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If they were expecting the marks they got at Skate Canada, they were doomed to be disappointed.

They next skated at Cup of Russia, which was one of the most controversial events of the year because of the strange level calls from the tech panel under TC Katalin Alpern, and the unbalanced judging panel with judges from 5 former SSRs. W/P lost the CoR SD by a huge margin and barely squeaked by B/S in the FS even though the Russians fell and their program was laughable.

They saw no better environment at the GPF, with Alpern as the Referee and Yuri Balkov on the panel. They finished behind the French and B/S but beat the Italians.

At the Olympics, they did not have a good SD, and even though they beat B/S and the Italians in the FS, they finished 7th. However, IMO, with Alpern again as the referee, and with a judging panel featuring judges from four former SSRs, they really couldn't expect an outcome better than what had happened at the previous two events.

And I would take any "message" from this last panel with a huge shaker of salt. The Sochi judges wanted what they wanted, and what they would most dearly NOT want to see was two NA teams on top of the podium. There was nothing they could do about that, but they weren't going to boost the chances of a third NA team either.