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Thread: Battle for bronze medals in pairs and ice dancing

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyanka View Post
    So if D/W got their DWTS contract, and assuming V/M aren't there ... then it's open season on the title.
    It would certainly be interesting if the surprise is that NEITHER Virtue & Moir nor Davis & White attend Worlds! Up until now, all the discussion here is about what if one team doesn't attend, but what if both teams don't attend?

    Here's the latest article on Davis & White from a couple days ago:

    ----

    Davis, White yet to make decision on worlds

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/davis-w...2215--spt.html

  2. #32
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Vitue/Moir said that they want to focus on the Art on Ice tour, IIRC, and it sounded like they are done. But who knows, we won't know for sure until the entry lists are out.
    On the Art on Ice website, Virtue/Moir are not listed among the cast.

  3. #33
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    If D/W and V/M end up skipping Worlds, that entire podium is up for grabs. I don't think I/K will get the some marks they did on home ice. As for pairs, it remains to be seen if V/T go or not. There may be more than once medal at play.

    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    Like Virtue/Moir's romantic programs, Pechalat/Bourzat always prefered comedy/funny/friendly programs. I'm not going to call that pushing boundaries. This is why I don't like ''Little Prince'' They are copying themselfs. Same idea, same movements, same lifts. Their choreography very predictable actually, If you are watch other dances from them. Squeeze all the technical elements in first 3 minutes and fill last 1 minute of the program with side by side easy holds, small jumps, running on ice...
    Leaving aside your characterization of their transitional movements and presentation of the programs, I see that you've chosen to conveniently overlook any scoring or transitional lifts near the end of their FDs, regardless of difficulty and fit with the program. As for the programs...

    2007: Four Seasons - a bespoke, non-classical version.
    2008: Craziness, which was electronic and edgy, not comic and charming.
    2009: Circus - true, that one was more of a comic, audience pleasing program.
    2010: Time/Requiem for a Dream. A misstep, because they were made to change the original music after the Masters. Stupid FFSG. But neither funny nor "friendly", whatever that's supposed to mean.
    2011: Chaplin. I won't argue that this wasn't essentially Circus 2.0.
    2012: The Pharaoh and his Mummy. Not intended as a comic program and I don't think it was one, either.
    2013: Rolling Stones, some of it outside the generic skating catalog (=muzak Paint it Black)
    2014: Little Prince. A hybrid program that's meant to be both contemplative and charming. Worked for some fans, not for others.

    At least half of these programs don't fit your description of P/B's approach. It's fine to say that you don't care for their skating, or that what they do doesn't appeal to you, or that they've failed in presenting the concepts they were trying to convey. But to suggest that they deliberately do one-note programs is inaccurate and unfair. They have tried to do the exact opposite.

    Meanwhile, V/M and especially D/W were mostly using ballroom, musicals and classical warhorses. I think P/B are justified in saying that they have put a greater effort into the conceptual side of their programs than most top teams, and that this is not something that the IJS really tries to reward. But then, the most interesting stuff is often done by the teams not on the podium. Like Hurtado/Diaz and Gilles/Poirier this season.

  4. #34
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I think all 3 teams have a style of their own, and I would not denigrate any of the 3 of them by characterizing them as one note.

    For whatever reason, D&W's OD's/SD's have been more interesting (and appeared to me to have involved more thought) than their FD's. Giselle for a polka was brilliant, as was Bollywood, and the choreo of the not touching step sequence for A los Amigos (2007 SD) was really nice. (when the ISU says Tango is the dance of choice, unfortunately there is little to be done about the choice of music) While they did not do a great job of performing it, generally, their Happy Feet Charleston OD was very interesting, and very complex, too. And again, while I am not crazy about My Fair Lady, the work Charlie mishmashed all those cuts together to get the Finnstep part to be bubbly and comic certainly achieved what the ISU said they wanted for the FInnstep, and clearly took a lot of time and effort to produce. And while choosing to do the rhumba as a Jennifer Lopez (On the Floor) bar dance did not impress the judges, it wasn't your average choice of music, either.

    I do not believe you can characterize D&W's 2008 Eleanor's Dream/Eleanor Rigby as either classical, a musical, ballroom or a warhorse.. However, I would note that at least 3 of those choices are distinct, and any team that has done all 3 of them has shown something beyond one note

    V&M are the reverse. By and large, their OD/SD's don't seem to have interested them very much. This year's Louis Armstrong/Ella Fitzgerald number is my favorite of the bunch, second favorite their 2010 Farrucas flamenco number. They seem to be more interested in portraying a story than in portraying a rhythm/dance, which is perhaps why their FD's are more interesting to me than their SD's/OD's.

    One certainly cannot say Pink Floyd (2009) is either classical, a musical or a warhorse. Hip, Hip, Chin, Chin by Club Des Belugas/Temptation by Diana Krall/Mujer Latina by Thalia isn't either, but I wish they did not reuse it as an SD the next year. I suppose you could call it ballroom.

    But I would agree that P&B are not a one note team. I do wish they had done Time for 2010 the way they presented it at French Masters. What is it about Olympic years that causes teams to second guess themselves so much?

    I loved their Flamenco with the fan in the 2008 season, but in general, their OD/SD's don't seem to have been given the level of thought they lavished on their FD's.

  5. #35
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    D/W's FDs since they moved up to the senior level: Polovtsian Dances, Eleanor's Dream/Eleanor Rigby, Samson and Delilah, POTO, Tango, Die Feldermaus, Notre Dame de Paris, Scheherazade. I think it is fair to characterize these as very safe choices (safe costumes, too - Meryl and her pretty princess dresses ). I don't fault them for going this way, since it clearly worked to their advantage and their goal as athletes is to win. But this discussion came up in relation to Bourzat's comments about what the top dance teams have focused on, and I think he has a case in arguing that he and Pechalat have put a greater effort into the creative side of their skating (including some of the ODs/SDs). I don't think either Pechalat or Bourzat would try to argue that any of the Olympic medalists are are not top-notch technically, but saying that the choice of material by these teams has been fairly conservative is a fair point.

    Although considering I/K's least conventional choice was Ghost, perhaps that is for the best

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    If D/W and V/M end up skipping Worlds, that entire podium is up for grabs. I don't think I/K will get the some marks they did on home ice. As for pairs, it remains to be seen if V/T go or not. There may be more than once medal at play.


    Leaving aside your characterization of their transitional movements and presentation of the programs, I see that you've chosen to conveniently overlook any scoring or transitional lifts near the end of their FDs, regardless of difficulty and fit with the program. As for the programs...

    2007: Four Seasons - a bespoke, non-classical version.
    2008: Craziness, which was electronic and edgy, not comic and charming.
    2009: Circus - true, that one was more of a comic, audience pleasing program.
    2010: Time/Requiem for a Dream. A misstep, because they were made to change the original music after the Masters. Stupid FFSG. But neither funny nor "friendly", whatever that's supposed to mean.
    2011: Chaplin. I won't argue that this wasn't essentially Circus 2.0.
    2012: The Pharaoh and his Mummy. Not intended as a comic program and I don't think it was one, either.
    2013: Rolling Stones, some of it outside the generic skating catalog (=muzak Paint it Black)
    2014: Little Prince. A hybrid program that's meant to be both contemplative and charming. Worked for some fans, not for others.

    At least half of these programs don't fit your description of P/B's approach. It's fine to say that you don't care for their skating, or that what they do doesn't appeal to you, or that they've failed in presenting the concepts they were trying to convey. But to suggest that they deliberately do one-note programs is inaccurate and unfair. They have tried to do the exact opposite.

    Meanwhile, V/M and especially D/W were mostly using ballroom, musicals and classical warhorses. I think P/B are justified in saying that they have put a greater effort into the conceptual side of their programs than most top teams, and that this is not something that the IJS really tries to reward. But then, the most interesting stuff is often done by the teams not on the podium. Like Hurtado/Diaz and Gilles/Poirier this season.
    Yes, at least half of their free dances are happy/comedy/funny. (Same record as Virtue/Moir's romantic programs) They didn't do anything exotic like Bollywood, anything romantic like Umbrellas of Cherbourg, anything balletic like Black Swan, anything passionate like Je Suis Malade, anything classical/lyrical or anything pure dance like Tango,Waltz,Rhumba. I didn't suprise when they choice Little Prince theme. I can remember almost all lifts, positions and transitional movements, costumes from previous programs. Even happy tunes of music (!?) sound similar. Usually ice dancers only doing one funny/happy/comedy dances in their whole career. This doesn't mean Pechalat/Bourzat's 4 or 5 dances in almost same theme is pushing the boundaries of originality.

    This is their Four Seasons. You can see their style in this dance. Same like Virtue/Moir's romantic style. If peoples are criticizing Virtue/Moir, why not Pechalat/Bourzat?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-awG7RsEcE

  7. #37
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    Thank you for admitting at least half of their free dances are happy/comedy/funny. (Same record as Virtue/Moir's romantic programs) They didn't do anything exotic like Bollywood, anything romantic like Umbrellas of Cherbourg, anything balletic like Black Swan, anything passionate like Je Suis Malade, anything classical/lyrical or anything pure dance like Tango,Waltz,Rhumba. I didn't suprise when they choice Little Prince theme. I can remember almost all lifts, positions and transitional movements, costumes from previous programs. Even happy tunes of music (!?) sound similar. Usually ice dancers only doing one funny/happy/comedy dances in their whole career. This doesn't mean Pechalat/Bourzat's 4 or 5 dances in almost same theme is pushing the boundaries of originality.

    This is their Four Seasons. You can see their style in this dance. Same like Virtue/Moir's romantic style. If peoples are criticizing Virtue/Moir, why not Pechalat/Bourzat?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-awG7RsEcE
    Your reading comprehension sucks: I wrote at least half, not at most half. And "comedic/funny" is not a theme, it is such a broad label that if you try hard enough, you'd manage to fit just about anything you want there. Oh wait, you already have. "You can see their style in this dance"? I should hope so! Would you rather see someone else's style? Personal style does not imply lack of range.

    I think there is enough call for ballroom and classical styles in ODs and SDs that it would make sense for some teams to skip it in their FDs. And if Black Swan is what you need as proof of any skaters' originality and range, that's pretty sad.

    Doris makes fair, well-reasoned and thought out points. You make silly and biased ones ("I remember all their costumes"? Seriously?). That's why people pay attention to Doris even if they don't agree with her, and why I'm done discussing anything with you.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Your reading comprehension sucks: I wrote at least half, not at most half. And "comedic/funny" is not a theme, it is such a broad label that if you try hard enough, you'd manage to fit just about anything you want there. Oh wait, you already have. "You can see their style in this dance"? I should hope so! Would you rather see someone else's style? Personal style does not imply lack of range.

    I think there is enough call for ballroom in ODs and SDs that it would make sense for some teams to skip it in their FDs. And if Black Swan is what you need as proof of any skaters' originality and range, that's pretty sad.

    Doris makes fair, well-reasoned and thought out points. You make silly and biased ones ("I remember all their costumes"? Seriously?). That's why people pay attention to Doris even if they don't agree with her.
    Don't be too offensive. Attack to me not going to change their free dance history. I don't understand why you are comparing with me and Doris but this is cool, thank you

    My first language is not english so maybe I did some mistakes. I writed ''You can see their style in this dance'' so you can see what their comfort zone is. I writed ''I remember all their costumes from previous programs'' so I want to say they looked similar as lifts and positions. If even Buttercup didn't disagree lifts and positions/movements (I said in same sentence) so they are really alike. Maybe we can find some changes in costumes. Also I writed Black Swan because this is a example, they didn't skated outside of their comfort zone. Yes again If even Buttercup didn't disagree other examples, this means they didn't really skated those themes or anything close, too.

    Maybe I'm not politically correct to Pechalat/Bourzat (their last season and don't have many medals) but If someone is trying to tell himself he gave this sport more than Virtue/Moir and Davis/White, he should be ready to that criticism. If they are really that creative, I'm sure we will hear a lot of them in future, don't worry.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    If D/W and V/M end up skipping Worlds, that entire podium is up for grabs. I don't think I/K will get the some marks they did on home ice. As for pairs, it remains to be seen if V/T go or not. There may be more than once medal at play.
    Sounds like a tense battle to me! Maybe that's why P/B are returning, to take a stab at the world title?

  10. #40
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyanka View Post
    Sounds like a tense battle to me! Maybe that's why P/B are returning, to take a stab at the world title?
    P/B's most recent update was that they were entered by the FFSG, but had not yet decided if they would go or not. Assuming neither V/M nor D/W will be at Worlds, I would imagine that a shot at a world title would weigh heavily in favor of going.

  11. #41
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    Obviously I/K's performances at the Olympics were great regardless of levels or PCS received. The fact that their levels and PCS were all good is certainly not dependable yet. I wouldn't say P/B or C/L couldn't beat them and I/K would win world bronze.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Obviously I/K's performances at the Olympics were great regardless of levels or PCS received. The fact that their levels and PCS were all good is certainly not dependable yet. I wouldn't say P/B or C/L couldn't beat them and I/K would win world bronze.
    Open season for the title. It's going to be a bloodbath, and we may be completely surprised by the end result. Two Russians on the podium? Neither Russian dance team? The Canadians on top and the French shut out in their swan song? Who knows?

    I can't wait, I just hope they all skate like they did in Sochi, every single free dance from the top 7 (even the divisive B/S number) was done splendidly. On pure quality, the Olympic FD was the single best final out of all the disciplines, where every last medal contender had a performance they could be proud of!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    Like Virtue/Moir's romantic programs, Pechalat/Bourzat always prefered comedy/funny/friendly programs. I'm not going to call that pushing boundaries. This is why I don't like ''Little Prince'' They are copying themselfs. Same idea, same movements, same lifts. Their choreography very predictable actually, If you are watch other dances from them. Squeeze all the technical elements in first 3 minutes and fill last 1 minute of the program with side by side easy holds, small jumps, running on ice...

    http://youtu.be/302-syi45zg?t=3m35s (2011 FD-After the spin)
    http://youtu.be/_VIXdhXcAWM?t=4m5s (2012 FD- After the spin)
    http://youtu.be/zxi94RO8peY?t=3m52s (2013 FD-After the spin)
    http://youtu.be/3hG_pUkPcg0?t=3m43s (2014 FD-After the spin)
    While P&B spend time to think about choreography and like many other skaters they prefer some concept in ordering elements….
    I&K’s choreographer Morozov prefers another way…just notice last three free dances and especially notice the choregraphy. What you will see is…identical steps and even arms moves before diagonal step sequence, very very similar steps in step sequence – turns, open holds, all those “waiting for my turns“ moments, after steps the same concept - cross-overs before the lift, on the same place on the ice…even Nikita’s steps and arm movements are the same…and dramatical finish with Lena towards judges or in front of them, posing for them…and Nikita turned to Lena with her arm towards her. Shame on you, Morozov. The same choreo for Ghost, Ave Maria and Swan Lake? Yes, Lena and Nikita are skating romances all the time while they can’t skate any other character yet, but choreo should reflect the story and music…all three dances have different story and music but choreo is not reflecting to it. You don’t mind this, Elif??? Copying whole choreography parts from one dance to another is a real misunderstanding in ice dance, no?
    All people dreaming about perfect choreography and perfection of I&K never noticed it? Ave Maria and Ghost was a ballet too???


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxFgJ...tailpage#t=248

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...eKi2y3Uo#t=287

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkzuw...tailpage#t=259

  14. #44
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    Pechalat & Bourzat were always a couple with extraordinary programs, their style is unique. You can talk about the same lifts (every couple is repeating lifts – while not their own lift, they copy lifts of another skater’s) and music which was already used (Cirque du Soleil, Requiem for a Dream), but a concept and story line of almost each dance is original, they always concentrate on many details, use costumes and other properties (long sleeves, flower skirt, fan) to support the idea of the dance. I don’t have problems to recognize which costume is for Little Prince, Mummy, City Lights. A Little Prince costume have similar colours of Circus costume but if you look properly you will find why is the first suitable for Flower and the second for Circus.

    Supporting the idea of Buttercup:
    Cats FD in 2004/05 – extraordinary, feline, many inspiration from dancers in musical
    Les Miserables FD in 2005/06 – better version than C&B are doing now, not about elements only.
    Four Seasons FD in 2006/07 – non-classical version and non-classical choreo
    Madness FD 2007/08 – two people on the edge of breakdown, a lot about imagination, abstraction… and finaly those sleeves
    Circus FD 2008/09 – funny and entertaining
    Time FD 2009/10 – Fabian as a clock and Natalie falls asleep and takes him into her dreams, some human movements, some mechanical movements taking us back and remind us a time and a clock
    City Lights FD 2010/11 – romantic, some people here tends to think it was a comedy, but I don’t think so, a movie had a comic parts but this dance was mainly concentrating on a story of The Little Tramp and The Blind Girl – a romance of somebody who wants to bring the sight of girl back
    Pharaon and Mummy FD 2011/12 – exotic, not funny and not romance
    Rolling Stones FD 2012/13 – pure dance without story, just dancing to a music medley of a great musicians
    Little Prince FD 2013/14 – how to take a story of book and bring it alive on the ice…ask P&B. The dance is not funny at all, it is playful and romantic partly and fresh.

    If Elif means that all those dances are in P&B’s comfort zone, well, it would mean that they are comfort skating to anything except a ballet dance (please, tell me somebody who skated a ballet dance on ice – not Ilinykh, it was just ballet moves, not a ballet, and their story ignored both ballet and Swan).

    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    Yes, at least half of their free dances are happy/comedy/funny. (Same record as Virtue/Moir's romantic programs) They didn't do anything exotic like Bollywood, anything romantic like Umbrellas of Cherbourg, anything balletic like Black Swan, anything passionate like Je Suis Malade, anything classical/lyrical or anything pure dance like Tango,Waltz,Rhumba. I didn't suprise when they choice Little Prince theme. I can remember almost all lifts, positions and transitional movements, costumes from previous programs. Even happy tunes of music (!?) sound similar. Usually ice dancers only doing one funny/happy/comedy dances in their whole career. This doesn't mean Pechalat/Bourzat's 4 or 5 dances in almost same theme is pushing the boundaries of originality.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYnVl6r5ws4 Tango in OD 2007, it was not the best tango of that evening and there were minor mistakes and shaky moments but it was passionate.
    You can find passion in their this season OD also.
    And wait a minute – Elif likes their Flamenco OD…and Flamenco is a very passionate dance, yes? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZPRencOHCw …2008 Flamenco OD

    Exotic think was their Arabian FD in 2002/03 season and Pharaon and Mummy FD.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUraPozQe_k 2002 Buddha Bar FD

    Romantic was City Light and partly Little Prince.

    Pure dances were all those years when OD was done, probably not everybody felt it necessary to have pure dance in OD, pure dance in CD and then surprisingly pure dance in FD. But to be more exact their Rolling Stones FD was pure dance to music, not ballroom music. And Cuba dance could be called a pure dance as to some free style of some strange Latin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufaaXgMXvvc 2004 FD

    The only really funny and comic dance for me is Circus FD.

    And how about inversing it…do you remember all top teams doing Time Dance, Madness dance (yes Bobrova), Cats - not only musical but portraying a cat – an animal (Yes, Bobrova with Birds)…and Circus? Who did circus from top dance couples past two or three Olympic cycles? Monko&Khaliavin went to a comedy/funny dance this season and suddenly people discovered that funny dance is not so easy. P&B did it and nobody came with idea that it would be hard for them.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D9V0WcSejA 2005 Cats FD

    Pointing to happy dances…all dancers are smiling soooo much to show judges how much happy are they during the dance (and probably how much happy are they knowing that their judging will be 100% objective)…it would lead to idea that all dances of all couples are happy (except Psycho and Birds by Bobrova and Madness and Time by Pechalat).

  15. #45
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    I'm sure If you try really hard, you can find one or two balletic examples in those dances too, sisinka. By the way, I think Virtue/Moir's only romantic program is Umbrellas of Cherbourg.

    Valse Triste FD: pure waltz, just dancing with music.
    Mahler:Classical/Lyrical
    Funny Face:Funny/Passionate/Storytelling
    The Seasons: They are showing their own story on ice, playful and fresh.

    Then maybe even Umbrellas of Cherbourg not a romantic dance

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