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Thread: Battle for bronze medals in pairs and ice dancing

  1. #46
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    D/W and V/M definitely out of Worlds, so it's going to be a battle royal. I would be shocked if P/B didn't go, because this is their best shot at winning the whole thing.

    It appears also that V/T are probably not going to Worlds either---Antipova/Maisuradze will sub.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    Pechalat & Bourzat were always a couple with extraordinary programs, their style is unique. You can talk about the same lifts (every couple is repeating lifts – while not their own lift, they copy lifts of another skater’s) and music which was already used (Cirque du Soleil, Requiem for a Dream), but a concept and story line of almost each dance is original, they always concentrate on many details, use costumes and other properties (long sleeves, flower skirt, fan) to support the idea of the dance. I don’t have problems to recognize which costume is for Little Prince, Mummy, City Lights. A Little Prince costume have similar colours of Circus costume but if you look properly you will find why is the first suitable for Flower and the second for Circus.

    Supporting the idea of Buttercup:
    Cats FD in 2004/05 – extraordinary, feline, many inspiration from dancers in musical
    Les Miserables FD in 2005/06 – better version than C&B are doing now, not about elements only.
    Four Seasons FD in 2006/07 – non-classical version and non-classical choreo
    Madness FD 2007/08 – two people on the edge of breakdown, a lot about imagination, abstraction… and finaly those sleeves
    Circus FD 2008/09 – funny and entertaining
    Time FD 2009/10 – Fabian as a clock and Natalie falls asleep and takes him into her dreams, some human movements, some mechanical movements taking us back and remind us a time and a clock
    City Lights FD 2010/11 – romantic, some people here tends to think it was a comedy, but I don’t think so, a movie had a comic parts but this dance was mainly concentrating on a story of The Little Tramp and The Blind Girl – a romance of somebody who wants to bring the sight of girl back
    Pharaon and Mummy FD 2011/12 – exotic, not funny and not romance
    Rolling Stones FD 2012/13 – pure dance without story, just dancing to a music medley of a great musicians
    Little Prince FD 2013/14 – how to take a story of book and bring it alive on the ice…ask P&B. The dance is not funny at all, it is playful and romantic partly and fresh.

    If Elif means that all those dances are in P&B’s comfort zone, well, it would mean that they are comfort skating to anything except a ballet dance (please, tell me somebody who skated a ballet dance on ice – not Ilinykh, it was just ballet moves, not a ballet, and their story ignored both ballet and Swan).



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYnVl6r5ws4 Tango in OD 2007, it was not the best tango of that evening and there were minor mistakes and shaky moments but it was passionate.
    You can find passion in their this season OD also.
    And wait a minute – Elif likes their Flamenco OD…and Flamenco is a very passionate dance, yes? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZPRencOHCw …2008 Flamenco OD

    Exotic think was their Arabian FD in 2002/03 season and Pharaon and Mummy FD.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUraPozQe_k 2002 Buddha Bar FD

    Romantic was City Light and partly Little Prince.

    Pure dances were all those years when OD was done, probably not everybody felt it necessary to have pure dance in OD, pure dance in CD and then surprisingly pure dance in FD. But to be more exact their Rolling Stones FD was pure dance to music, not ballroom music. And Cuba dance could be called a pure dance as to some free style of some strange Latin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufaaXgMXvvc 2004 FD

    The only really funny and comic dance for me is Circus FD.

    And how about inversing it…do you remember all top teams doing Time Dance, Madness dance (yes Bobrova), Cats - not only musical but portraying a cat – an animal (Yes, Bobrova with Birds)…and Circus? Who did circus from top dance couples past two or three Olympic cycles? Monko&Khaliavin went to a comedy/funny dance this season and suddenly people discovered that funny dance is not so easy. P&B did it and nobody came with idea that it would be hard for them.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D9V0WcSejA 2005 Cats FD

    Pointing to happy dances…all dancers are smiling soooo much to show judges how much happy are they during the dance (and probably how much happy are they knowing that their judging will be 100% objective)…it would lead to idea that all dances of all couples are happy (except Psycho and Birds by Bobrova and Madness and Time by Pechalat).
    You can be original, but the execution is just as important. P&B were never great interpreters or the best executors. I respected their attempts, but an attempt is only a partial percentage of a masterpiece. If you gave the same concept and material to other ice dancers, I'm sure many of them can do better.

    Slightly different doesn't mean original either. The most I can say about P&B's style as distinct from others is quirky and playful.

    The only ice dancers who could successfully convey humor are Rahkamo and Kokko in 1991 FD. Actually P&B try to act like Rahkamo and Kokko but they are nowhere near their level of originality and entertainment. There have been *attempts* at humor in ice dancing but they're usually lame (remember Yagudin's Banana program and Plush's muscle man program? Because if ice dancing is about all the drama and mostly romance - it goes against humor. And the judges like high drama; most of them are conditioned to think high drama=good. The other program that made me LOL was Gary Beacom's I'm Your Man, because he was so weird.

  3. #48
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    Kind of ironic for Marina Zoueva that neither of her top dance teams will be at Worlds this month! It was reported on another thread that she had predicted D&W were going to win another World title this year. I guess now she'll have more time to focus on The Shibutanis.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    While P&B spend time to think about choreography and like many other skaters they prefer some concept in ordering elements….
    I&K’s choreographer Morozov prefers another way…just notice last three free dances and especially notice the choregraphy. What you will see is…identical steps and even arms moves before diagonal step sequence, very very similar steps in step sequence – turns, open holds, all those “waiting for my turns“ moments, after steps the same concept - cross-overs before the lift, on the same place on the ice…even Nikita’s steps and arm movements are the same…and dramatical finish with Lena towards judges or in front of them, posing for them…and Nikita turned to Lena with her arm towards her. Shame on you, Morozov. The same choreo for Ghost, Ave Maria and Swan Lake? Yes, Lena and Nikita are skating romances all the time while they can’t skate any other character yet, but choreo should reflect the story and music…all three dances have different story and music but choreo is not reflecting to it. You don’t mind this, Elif??? Copying whole choreography parts from one dance to another is a real misunderstanding in ice dance, no?
    All people dreaming about perfect choreography and perfection of I&K never noticed it? Ave Maria and Ghost was a ballet too???


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxFgJ...tailpage#t=248

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...eKi2y3Uo#t=287

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkzuw...tailpage#t=259
    Believe me, you are not the only one who noticed it. And I am dreading their likely world title, because it signifies, to me at least, here we go again with watered down technique and choreography. Here we go again with Uber!Trauma!Drama! and Feeling!Deep!Emotions! Here we go again with Ingmar Bergman on Ice and/or Readers Digest Dumbed-Down Classics In TackyAss Costumes! Sturm und Drang As Razzmatazz!

    Oh boy. Can't wait.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    You can be original, but the execution is just as important. P&B were never great interpreters or the best executors. I respected their attempts, but an attempt is only a partial percentage of a masterpiece. If you gave the same concept and material to other ice dancers, I'm sure many of them can do better.

    Slightly different doesn't mean original either. The most I can say about P&B's style as distinct from others is quirky and playful.
    Execution of P&B was not perfect in their early years when their basics and technique of skating were on lower level. They improved a lot since they started to work with Zhulin. At least last four years their execution was great. And especially their execution at the Olympics couldn’t be better.
    I can imagine that their Rolling Stones medley could be danced slightly better by Tessa and Scott, but as to other dances of P&B I can’t imagine that some other couples would show better execution.

    City Lights program was not quirky, it was romantic with classical choreography, Circus was not quirky also, it was funny. Madness and Time program were weird and quirky, not Pharaon program, it was choreography reminding an Egypt. Choreography and presentation of Cats were inspired by musical dancers – feline, not quirky. Four seasons program was quirky, but Les Miserables were not. Little Prince is not quirky, I don’t see anything what would lead puritans to close their eyes or what could be called provocative. Their dances had many styles.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    Yes, at least half of their free dances are happy/comedy/funny. (Same record as Virtue/Moir's romantic programs) They didn't do anything exotic like Bollywood, anything romantic like Umbrellas of Cherbourg, anything balletic like Black Swan, anything passionate like Je Suis Malade, anything classical/lyrical or anything pure dance like Tango,Waltz,Rhumba. I didn't suprise when they choice Little Prince theme. I can remember almost all lifts, positions and transitional movements, costumes from previous programs. Even happy tunes of music (!?) sound similar. Usually ice dancers only doing one funny/happy/comedy dances in their whole career. This doesn't mean Pechalat/Bourzat's 4 or 5 dances in almost same theme is pushing the boundaries of originality.

    This is their Four Seasons. You can see their style in this dance. Same like Virtue/Moir's romantic style. If peoples are criticizing Virtue/Moir, why not Pechalat/Bourzat?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-awG7RsEcE
    Except they did also a Cats, a very unusual les Misérables compare to all the crap and cheesy one we had, and Che Guevara Fd. This add up to all the one previously listed. I don't mention the Eastern music Fd and 2001.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    They do have a higher base value than V&T in both programs though dont they. That is interesting to realize.
    But it is not about who has the highest base value if you can't skate it. If the winner was always the one who has the highest base value, every man would be putting 6 quads in their programs (who cares that you have no chance to land them?). Luckily, the winner is the one who not only plans a difficult program, but actually manages to skate the difficult program they planed.

  8. #53
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    Well with the fields that are now projected it will probably still be a battle for bronze.

    Dance- gold seems to be clearly between I&K and P&B. Cant see anyone else getting it based on the skating and scores thus far this year. Bronze would be between B&S, W&P, and C&L. If W&P skate a good short dance this time rather than the really weak SD they skated at the Olympics they should get it, but that is a big if with them.

    Men- gold seems to be Hanyu's barring a meltdown and silver Fernandez's barring a meltdown. Bronze is wide open with Machida the favorite.

    Pairs- gold is between S&K and S&S. Bronze is between a bunch of teams- the two Canadians, two Chinese, 2nd and 3rd Russians, Italians.

    Ladies- this is the most open probably. Asada and Kostner are the favorites but either can melt down at any given time. Julia could win if those two make alot of mistakes, but unlike Russian Nationals in Sochi that is the only way she will beat those two. Wagner, Gold, Suzuki, Murakami, could all win a medal of some kind if they skate well.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Ladies- this is the most open probably. Asada and Kostner are the favorites but either can melt down at any given time. Julia could win if those two make alot of mistakes, but unlike Russian Nationals in Sochi that is the only way she will beat those two. Wagner, Gold, Suzuki, Murakami, could all win a medal of some kind if they skate well.
    Not to veer too far away from the focus on dance, but I don't see Kostner melting down anytime soon. She may not be at her absolute best but a total disaster a la 2010 Olys doesn't seem likely to me. Caro's been remarkably consistent and hasn't finished off the podium since 2010 W. She'll likely still be on the podium somewhere, in any of the 3 positions. And as we can see Mao can have a total disaster like at the Olys.

    I do agree with your assessments overall across all four disciplines. Just wondering though, you mentioned "2nd and 3rd Russians" for a possible pairs bronze, I can see that with B/L (ugh) but do you does that young-ish team really have a clear shot at the podium? Or are you thinking that they come out and just blast everyone away the way S/K did with their great performances in Sochi? I see bronze as either Chinese or Canadian in pairs.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I dont know much about the 3rd Russian dance team but I didnt even know much about Stolbova & Klimov before this year so I wouldnt count any Russian pair out. They seem to have a deep reserve of talent in that event, unlike their dancers. Most likely it will be a Canadian or Chinese team winning that bronze though.

    I agree Kostner probably wont melt down. I dont even think Asada will but she is by far the most likely to, and she doesnt even have to melt down. She misses a couple of those triple axels and she loses a ton of points. I still am predicting a 1-2 for Kostner and Asada in either order though, and who knows for bronze, but of all the events that is the most likely an underdog like Gold or Suzuki could win. In the dance, mens, and pairs, I dont see anyone outside of maybe 2 people/teams winning.
    I see Yulia on the podium as well, if not Suzuki as a final big prize, or Gracie making her mark with the first of many potential world medals / titles. Strange that the only top-tier lady who I don't see anywhere near the podium remains Ashley, I don't know why. Even Kanako I think can finish ahead of her.

    For the Russians I did remember S/K from 2012 Euros when they filled in for Yuko & Sasha and thought immediately they were better than B/L, but I didn't really think of them for the Olympic team until they won Russian nationals. B/L are lucky that K/S were still unable to skate, they may have been knocked down to fourth nationally (and even then K/S may not have been 100% and could have finished off the podium themselves.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyanka View Post
    I see Yulia on the podium as well, if not Suzuki as a final big prize, or Gracie making her mark with the first of many potential world medals / titles. Strange that the only top-tier lady who I don't see anywhere near the podium remains Ashley, I don't know why. Even Kanako I think can finish ahead of her.
    The same for me...

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Dance- gold seems to be clearly between I&K and P&B. Cant see anyone else getting it based on the skating and scores thus far this year. Bronze would be between B&S, W&P, and C&L. If W&P skate a good short dance this time rather than the really weak SD they skated at the Olympics they should get it, but that is a big if with them
    It's always hard to know how W&P will place because they have always just missed out on the World podium (as they have on other podiums over the years).

    I think there are 2 reasons for why it has taken W&P a long time to climb the World standings to the podium:

    1. Their own inconsistency has been a problem at times in the past, although in the last 3 seasons they have been much more consistent and technically proficient than they were in their earlier years. They don't make mistakes very often now - one of the only exceptions this year being the unison/twizzle issue in the SD at the Olympics. It's worth remembering that it's only within the last 3 years that they have become Canada's #2 dance team. Until 3 years ago, they usually placed behind Crone & Poirier at most events. It was only in March 2011 at Worlds that they finally beat C&P. When C&P went their separate ways not long after, and Paul started a new partnership with Piper Gilles, it was finally the opportunity for W&P to become the unquestioned #2 team in Canada. So their international rise has been slow, because their national rise was slow.

    2. They don't seem to have ever really caught on fire with the judges. Not only have they not won a medal at Worlds yet, but they have also yet to get on the podium at the GPF. Ironically, the only other Canadian dance team to get on the podium at the GPF in recent years other than V&M, was Crone & Poirier in December 2010. W&P, despite 3 trips to the GPF, have yet to do so. Just as it seems they are improving and are about to get onto the podium, a couple more teams surpass them when victory seems within reach. Therefore, although W&P should theoretically be in line for the podium this year now that the top 2 teams aren't competing, the football could be pulled away again at the last moment.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Believe me, you are not the only one who noticed it. And I am dreading their likely world title, because it signifies, to me at least, here we go again with watered down technique and choreography. Here we go again with Uber!Trauma!Drama! and Feeling!Deep!Emotions! Here we go again with Ingmar Bergman on Ice and/or Readers Digest Dumbed-Down Classics In TackyAss Costumes! Sturm und Drang As Razzmatazz!

    Oh boy. Can't wait.
    Comparing I&K and Morozov to Bergman is Aside from their Swan Lake and probably OD, they have yet to display that level of artistic mastery anywhere. They don't refer to dumbed-down classics either, or classics of anything.

    They came up with very good programs for Sochi, but we waited years for them to pull it together.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Comparing I&K and Morozov to Bergman is Aside from their Swan Lake and probably OD, they have yet to display that level of artistic mastery anywhere. They don't refer to dumbed-down classics either, or classics of anything.

    They came up with very good programs for Sochi, but we waited years for them to pull it together.
    Not everything by Bergman is a classic. He made his share of mediocrities.

    YMMV but I can't get behind a team that only skated in hold when the rules absolutely required them to do so. And in I/K's FD that means twice: for both step sequences. Otherwise, it's about as open a program as you can get. Not my cuppa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan O View Post
    I'm not sure I want to see P&B again after their less than gracious comments after the Dance event in Sochi.
    What were these comments? I truly believe had V an M and D and W skated we wouldn't see them in Japan. It is reality; people do what is best for them. Now they have a chance for a WGM something many greater teams neer achieved including Dubreil and Lauzon, Belbin and Agosto, Wilson and Mcall, Blumberg and Siebert

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