Judging Davis and White

Unfortunately as L'Equipe reported gold for Davis & White unless they fall all over the ice in exchange for Russian gold everywhere else. It has been played out that way so far and by the ridiculous scores was always going to. Plushenko's WD meant they could not award the mens gold to Russia so they had to select another country to award it to, for the simple reason there was no longer a mens entry from Russia in the event. Had Plushenko WD sooner, had Kovtun not been ready, and had Voronov or Menshov filled in for Plushenko the gold would undoubtably have gone to them barring more mistakes than Hanyu or Chan, or perhaps even had Hanyu and Chan skated cleanly.

The sad thing for D&W is they did deserve their gold perhaps. No way in heck did they deserve a 5 point win overall though, 1-2 points at most. However it was obvious by the lowballing of V&M and the exagerrated scores of D&W the fix was in there pre Games, just like very figure skating even at these Games. Same for V&T and the Russian Team. They both deserved to win, but now suddenly the appearance their wins were fixed before the event even began unfairly taints their achievement, and it is a shame.

pangtongfan said:

Unfortunately as L'Equipe reported gold for Davis & White unless they fall all over the ice in exchange for Russian gold everywhere else. It has been played out that way so far and by the ridiculous scores was always going to. Plushenko's WD meant they could not award the mens gold to Russia so they had to select another country to award it to, for the simple reason there was no longer a mens entry from Russia in the event. Had Plushenko WD sooner, had Kovtun not been ready, and had Voronov or Menshov filled in for Plushenko the gold would undoubtably have gone to them barring more mistakes than Hanyu or Chan, or perhaps even had Hanyu and Chan skated cleanly.

The sad thing for D&W is they did deserve their gold perhaps. No way in heck did they deserve a 5 point win overall though, 1-2 points at most. However it was obvious by the lowballing of V&M and the exagerrated scores of D&W the fix was in there pre Games, just like very figure skating even at these Games. Same for V&T and the Russian Team. They both deserved to win, but now suddenly the appearance their wins were fixed before the event even began unfairly taints their achievement, and it is a shame.

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You should write novels.

KKonas said:

In your dreams only.

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Is that you all this time, bbgarfield?

I thought something was similar about the posting style and the disturbing/unprofessional conduct of a so called "judge" / journalist laugh

Every 12 of your posts have been ALL to me, and ALL posted today. *scary*

figureskatingfan22 said:

Aside from the nasty side notes this was the most helpful discussion about Virtue/Moir's and Davis/White's placements I read in both FSU and GoldenSkate. So thanks Matt K and bbgarfield! (I honestly mean it!)

So the gist is:
D/W won according to the current IJS judging guidelines. They skated a modern / current ice dance. That's how ice dance is supposed to look now according to the rules independent from our own preference.
V/M skated more in the traditional ice dance way. Although many people prefer that traditional ice dance school it's outdated now!

So to win Virtue/Moir would have had to skate more like Davis and White or in other words should have read the rules better.

Explanatory note: I'm an V/M uber and I'm still sad about the outcome. For years I tried to understand what V/M did wrong. Most experts (TV Commentators, Figure skating journalists) said that D/W are the rightful winner. That made me think. But they failed to properly explain the reasons. Now I finally start to unterstand.

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And there were also other EXPERTS (former skaters and COMMENTATORS) who thought V/M should have won. See, it doesn't go just one way.

But's it's a subjective sport, and anyone who thinks whatever, is entitled to their opinion.

And on another note, but D/W's Scheherazade = modern? If you think V/M have good postures, lines, ease of dance holds and positions = a certain traditional/outdated STYLE, than sorry, it's not a style, it's technique. It's basics, it's dance and skating basics. G&P, K&O, U&Z had this polish, and they did dramatic programs. Dance and basics relate to all styles. Something D/W don't have. But that's okay. I know what you are trying to say. That not ice dancing is the new ice dancing (Coomes/Buckland heading in this direction ).

Congrats USA, first gold medal in ice dance history. The USFSA President has got her wish:
Congrats to D/W, their parents, all Americans, and USA!

"We are thrilled beyond belief that the U.S won its first gold medal in ice dance," said U.S. Figure Skating President Patricia St. Peter, who noted that she judged the two during their early days.

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How's the weather down there in Australia, Matt?

mathman said:

how's the weather down there in australia, matt?

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lol

WeakAnkles said:

You should write novels.

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I didnt come up with the L'Equipe article. Someone who knew exactly what was going on did. Some on here were convinced of its truth even before the Team 2nd round (the revelation came out after the first) but I held my fingers in my ears not wanting to believe such a thing even as the Games wore on even as each discipline gave increasing evidence it probably was true. Today finally convinced me to stop kidding myself though, they were right all along. All the scores the Russians have received in all 5 figure skating events (all inflated by a good 5% or more) and the ridiculous scoring gap between D&W and V&M this event (and perhaps all season) in conjuction with the article from a well known source, are simply too much all together to be a coincidence. The perfect switch as L'Equipe suggested, a guaranted gold for D&W in exchange for guaranteed Russian gold everywhere else and guaranteed dance bronze. Perfect. Except Plushenko didnt skate and WD too late for another mens entry to be possible, so the planned mens gold to go with the other 3 also promised became impossible. Bad luck for Russia.

And the ridiculous scoring gap between D&W and V&M this event (and perhaps all season) in conjuction with the article from a well known source, are simply too much all together to be a coincidence.

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Okay, see, this is where people lose me. That kind of conspiracy is just too big to contain. SLC came out fairly quickly, and that was just some backscratching between the French and Russian federations in two events. Now you're talking about results being fixed at other international events over the course of the whole season, so that's a lot more judges and a lot more collusion. I see people complaining that T&S were unfairly marked down on the Finnstep and D&W were gifted with levels there and on their twizzles and footwork. So now we're talking about bribes or deal-making with the tech callers and analysts?

It just doesn't make sense. It would be a huge risk, and the reward was something that was almost a sure bet in both disciplines. A smaller collusion is at least in the realm of belief, but it's not like these scores are inconsistent with the results this season or the fact that we often see inflated scores and overly wide gaps at the Olympics.

Not to mention the results aren't really surprising? D/W, V/T, and Russia were the favorites. The Russians who won silver in pairs had a truly deserving performance. I/K's score raised my eyebrows, but the placement is not surprising since they beat P/B earlier this year at the only competition met at (until the Olympics), and we saw how they just barely lost Euros despite Elena falling on an element. The judges have liked them all season long, and we knew they preferred them to P/B.

I think Adelina's PCS was inflated, but home-field advantage is a real thing, and part of her surprisingly high score is down to the tech panel who awarded her more Level 4s than any other skater tonight. And while I'd have her below Carolina, I agree that she belongs in the Top 3.

So IDK, I just don't really see a bunch of funny business going on that ~proves anything.

pangtongfan said:

I didnt come up with the L'Equipe article. Someone who knew exactly what was going on did. Some on here were convinced of its truth even before the Team 2nd round (the revelation came out after the first) but I held my fingers in my ears not wanting to believe such a thing even as the Games wore on even as each discipline gave increasing evidence it probably was true. Today finally convinced me to stop kidding myself though, they were right all along. All the scores the Russians have received in all 5 figure skating events (all inflated by a good 5% or more) and the ridiculous scoring gap between D&W and V&M this event (and perhaps all season) in conjuction with the article from a well known source, are simply too much all together to be a coincidence. The perfect switch as L'Equipe suggested, a guaranted gold for D&W in exchange for guaranteed Russian gold everywhere else and guaranteed dance bronze. Perfect. Except Plushenko didnt skate and WD too late for another mens entry to be possible, so the planned mens gold to go with the other 3 also promised became impossible. Bad luck for Russia.

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And you can also point to a history of overscoring WHENEVER an event is held in Russia, specifically for Russian teams. Cup of Russia for say the last gabillion years, anyone? And now you're definitely making things up--where did the L'Equipe article mention that a bronze for dance was part of the deal? Where did the story say that the deal was for ANOTHER medal, except for dance and teams? Like I said, you should be a novelist. You keep embellishing your story. Now the fix was in pre-Games. Just how many federations were involved that this deal could be carried off FOR TWO YEARS? There's is an old and very wise saying: the only way you can be sure two people will keep a secret safe is if one of them is dead.

Heck, you could even spin the story another way: the Russian coach planted the story in order to have a serious shot at a silver medal for a Russian dance team, because Voir looked exceedingly vulnerable all year (or was the fix in to lower their tech scores all year in relation to lesser teams who, gosh darn it, actually beat them--Voir has been relying on their PCS scores ALL YEAR to keep them on or near the top). Plant a story to upset Voir, and let a Russian team exploit that vulnerability. See? I can write fiction too.

Matt K said:

Is that you all this time, bbgarfield?

I thought something was similar about the posting style and the disturbing/unprofessional conduct of a so called "judge" / journalist laugh

Every 12 of your posts have been ALL to me, and ALL posted today. *scary*

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No point in trying to make me the fall guy for your ravings. The people who run this board know very well who I am and my knowledge not only of the sport, but pretty much everyone who is anyone in skating including coaches, judges, tech controllers, skaters even the President and director of USFS and the ISU. I post only under one name. I haven't written 12 posts to you today. Waste of time.

BrentWolgamott said:

JEEZ, I have never heard so much kvetching over an ice dance result. For god's sake, Davis and White were silver medalists 4 years ago; it's not like they came out of nowhere. They were the younger, hungrier team. I think it can be argued that "Well, I prefer the Canadians over the Americans..." but to suggest that Davis and White are somehow UNWORTHY of the gold medal...or that SUBJECTIVELY SPEAKING, some people prefer THEIR skating to V/M. You HAVE to accept that both teams were wonderful, and that reasonable people can disagree. The only thing that separates D/W and V/M in my eyes is that V/M have been inconsistent the last 2 seasons (see: team event) and judges are people too. They see who's not making mistakes. They see who continually goes out there and produces the cleanest skate. They see everything, just like we do. That's going to be reflected in the component mark. Judges are human, lord.

I'd also like to point out that Davis and White got straight 10s for Choreography/Composition, and Interpretation. That means that even the bloody Canadian judge (assuming there is one...ISU only lists "ISU" as the country anymore) gave them a perfect score. So shuddupaboutitalready.

Humpf.

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Davis, White and Moir are the same age. Virtue is 2 years younger. V/M is a younger team than D/W.

KKonas said:

No point in trying to make me the fall guy for your ravings. The people who run this board know very well who I am and my knowledge not only of the sport, but pretty much everyone who is anyone in skating including coaches, judges, tech controllers, skaters even the President and director of USFS and the ISU. I post only under one name. I haven't written 12 posts to you today. Waste of time.

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I will also vouch for KKonas, whose many posts have revealed a wide experience of skating and many connections in the skating world, along with vast and valuable knowledge that he/she has shared very generously with all of us. KKonas does not go around picking fights.