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Thread: Judging Davis and White

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladskater View Post
    Davis and White better enjoy their Gold Medal while they can because it looks like the Russians are building a pretty strong ice dance team. They might not be so lucky with the judges next time the Russians are in the building.
    I doubt that Davis and White will continue skating that long. The point is rather that we American and Canadian fans should enjoy the gold medals of both Davis/White and Virtue/Moir. The next dynasty will be Russian, and might remain so for the foreseeable future. Our North American golden age, which has lent a glow to both Canada and the United States during both Olympics, has probably ended for now.

  2. #17
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Perhaps I should have left it as jazz club. I.e. not ballroom. Also, it was not bubbly or mildly humorous. Yes, I am not thrilled with the My Fair Lady music, but it does meet requirements, even if not an inspired choice ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I don't see how it wasn't bubbly. "Heaven, I'm in heaven"?
    Agree with Blades. Seems to me that one man's bubbly is another's non-bubbly ...

    Doris, just curious:
    Is humorous one of the ISU specifications? And if so, what is humorous about Davis/White's My Fair Lady selections??

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I doubt that Davis and White will continue skating that long. The point is rather that we American and Canadian fans should enjoy the gold medals of both Davis/White and Virtue/Moir. The next dynasty will be Russian, and might remain so for the foreseeable future. Our North American golden age, which has lent a glow to both Canada and the United States during both Olympics, has probably ended for now.
    Whether the next dynasty is Russian is completely dependent on if I&K can hold it together and become the new dominant team. No way are Bobrova & Soloviev going to do it, and I dont see any of their current up and comers being a dominant team. I think there are two scenarios, either I&K dominating or an open field with 4, 5, or 6 contenders but either way there will be some NA teams in the hunt for medals, but nothing like the total dominance of V&M and D&W.

  4. #19
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    Damn it people, would you leave Meryl and Charlie alone? There was NO CONTROVERSY in their win. They were clean, sharp and beautiful. Deal with it.

    Nobody belittled Tessa and Scott's success 4 years ago, why the need to do it to Meryl and Charlie?

  5. #20
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Well, we've got 15 minutes to finish reminiscing over the dance competition, then it's off to the ladies!

  6. #21
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Perhaps I should have left it as jazz club. I.e. not ballroom. Also, it was not bubbly or mildly humorous. Yes, I am not thrilled with the My Fair Lady music, but it does meet requirements, even if not an inspired choice Muskrat Ramble is Charleston rather than Quickstep. This is legal, because the time signature is the same and the number of beats per second are right, but it cannot have helped their cause. It's too bad, because it's the nicest sd they have ever had IMO. Unfortunately, it's like a poodle entered in a terrier contest.

    I wish they had used an expanded version of their sd as their fd, and had picked something else for the sd.
    I actually REALLY wish I had been able to talk to you more at US Nats. In the past week or so there has not been a single post you've made that I disagreed with. Of course that might have made our talk rather boring, as I'd have just been nodding the whole time, but still....

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladskater View Post
    .....I just don't get it. There is something not right with the judging. Their marks have been definitely inflated for the past couple of years....
    You admit you don't get it and I assume you don't quite understand every element in the judging protocol either. If you say their marks have been inflated 'definitely', would you mind pulling out some elements in the protocol and comment on them to support your arguments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    ...Virtue/Moir have the better skating and presentation skills of anyone competing today. They can move in and out of any dance hold without losing flow, speed and positions. Other teams can't and or lose one or the other. Not to mention their speed and power from their knees and deep edges, just to die for .....D/W never have, and never will, IMO. I like that V/M have never "sold out" like using toe picks to run across the ice or sacrificing posture/lines for a level 4 element. VM only team to have both the technique and artistic aspects of ice dancing and have never sacrificed their quality.....
    To use Oly D/W's FD as an example, when and where did they lose speed? To sight a few examples where D/W performed better than V/M in the FD. During the twizzle sequence, D/W was definitely spinning faster and more in sync across the ice, especially the third section of the twizzles. If you are commenting on the positions of the ladies in lifts, did you actually pay attention to how the men traveled on ice? Charlie was definitely spinning faster, maintaining better speed and covering more ice with cleaner footwork. On the same lifts where the men were gliding on edges, if you look closer, Scott had very minute wobble on the blades. Not to mention the entrances and exits for D/W were more difficult to get in and out. There were also a few sprays of ice flying in a few turns for V/M while there's none for D/W. Those little things might not be visible to an average spectator but that's how the judges distinguished between marking the elements.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbgarfield View Post

    To use Oly D/W's FD as an example, when and where did they lose speed? To sight a few examples where D/W performed better than V/M in the FD. During the twizzle sequence, D/W was definitely spinning faster and more in sync across the ice, especially the third section of the twizzles. If you are commenting on the positions of the ladies in lifts, did you actually pay attention to how the men traveled on ice? Charlie was definitely spinning faster, maintaining better speed and covering more ice with cleaner footwork. On the same lifts where the men were gliding on edges, if you look closer, Scott had very minute wobble on the blades. Not to mention the entrances and exits for D/W were more difficult to get in and out. There were also a few sprays of ice flying in a few turns for V/M while there's none for D/W. Those little things might not be visible to an average spectator but that's what the judges distinguish between marks.
    Welcome to GS, and thank you for this detailed analysis! This is the kind of element I don't know to look for, and you have given me a great deal of insight. While I loved both programs (and I mean loved them; they were each ravishing in their own way), I would not know to keep an eye on things like the glide and the men's movement, and as you say, the judges would look for exactly that.

  9. #24
    Keepin' it real gsk8's Avatar
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    Lad, first you post about how V/M should be nominated for the Order of Canada medal since "anyone can win an Olympic medal". Did that not get enough attention for you? Did you have to start another to further downplay D/W achievements?

    Very bad taste.....

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbgarfield View Post
    To use Oly D/W's FD as an example, when and where did they lose speed? To sight a few examples where D/W performed better than V/M in the FD. During the twizzle sequence, D/W was definitely spinning faster and more in sync across the ice, especially the third section of the twizzles. If you are commenting on the positions of the ladies in lifts, did you actually pay attention to how the men traveled on ice? Charlie was definitely spinning faster, maintaining better speed and covering more ice with cleaner footwork. On the same lifts where the men were gliding on edges, if you look closer, Scott had very minute wobble on the blades. Not to mention the entrances and exits for D/W were more difficult to get in and out. There were also a few sprays of ice flying in a few turns for V/M while there's none for D/W. Those little things might not be visible to an average spectator but that's how the judges distinguished between marking the elements.
    If you watch V/M for their mistakes in great detail one should do the same for D/W. There is snow spraying out of DW's blades when they are attempting to skate close together almost all the time. This part at 3:46-3:49 ish, they transition from her leaping over him into a face to face hold. Yet, they struggle to maintain a good closed hold (very unfinished, it's not really a closed hold, she is tugging at him) and they don't cover much ice. Why? Look at their blades, they are stepping down on the ice, not on a deep edge. 3:46-3:49 and again at 4:25-4:27.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0imqv_BxuM

    Compare this to V/M's where they don't lose flow or speed when going from open hold to closed dance hold. And yes, their dance hold is actually finished and closed. And they skate on deep edges to maintain this flow and speed: 1:37-1:42, 3:19-3:23 , and 4:03-4:07: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg2Ozj1R0bw It looks EFFORTLESS, you don't even notice they are changing holds because they don't lose speed.

    D/W - choreography has lots of small hops, jumps and leaping. Yes, it accentuates the music beat but they also skate on shallower edges (MUCH shallower than V/M) and they "run" sometimes on flats.

    And no offense, but "gliding on edges"? The first part of V/M's FD before their lift, is gliding on edges (and on one foot!). What Charlie is doing to swing Meryl during lifts I would hardly call gliding on edges.

    And look at the step sequence of both teams, particularly the one where they skate in closer holds (the circular steps). V/M's hips ALWAYS maintain even spacing, their hips are much closer together than D/W. D/W's hips at times too far apart in the footwork, and they have a harder time getting their lines to match as a result (although it's not as bad as 2010). They don't hold their edges or positions longer than a millisecond, whereas V/M actually hold theirs longer (they won't sacrifice quality).

    It's interesting you mention Charlie's footwork. He toe pushes sometimes (look at that part in his midline step sequence in the SD at GPF), not the same depth or power as Moir.

  11. #26
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    I've heard enough whining from V&M ubers to last a lifetime, especially from those who sit in front of a TV screen and think they know everything about skating, judging, etc. Ridiculous.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Welcome to GS, and thank you for this detailed analysis! This is the kind of element I don't know to look for, and you have given me a great deal of insight. While I loved both programs (and I mean loved them; they were each ravishing in their own way), I would not know to keep an eye on things like the glide and the men's movement, and as you say, the judges would look for exactly that.
    Thank you. It really takes judges (especially in the states) numerous years of training and tons of money traveling for trial judging just to learn how to distinguish those little quality difference. If people look closely at the judging protocol in the FD, all judges except Christopher Buchanan put D/W ahead of V/M. You might be able to buy 1 or 2 judges as what was rumored, but to have a clear majority of the panel having that decision, it didn't seem very possible, seriously.

  13. #28
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    To add to my post above, look at D/W's right forward inside brackets, both in the SD midline step sequence and FD (diagonal step sequence). When they exit on the right back outside edge they often don't extend the free leg and almost all the time never match (SD). They never hold these moves long enough (both their edges and lines). They hit a right forward inside bracket really quick and that's that. They hit the edge but don't hold it long or extend the leg. Enough to get the level and that's that.

  14. #29
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    Sour grapes are a big part of every Olympics, but . . . yeesh, this is getting disappointing. There's no shock that a team that has been among the top 2 for the past 4 years, dominating the past 2 years, won. None.

    I think the sad part about all this faux-controversy is that it's missing the bigger, better story: V/M and D/W were a new vanguard of this sport that energized and elevated it and -- in the eyes of many -- made it legitimate. It's an enormous success, they did it by driving each other to new heights (way before Vancouver) and ought to be celebrated by everyone in the sport. When these two teams are gone, the sport will owe both a debt of gratitude.

  15. #30
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    Enough to get the level and that's that.
    That's the point of the game - get the levels, get +GOEs from the bullets you satisfy technically. Why "extend and hold it longer" if then you are going to run out of space in the rink while you extend and hold ALL your turns. V/M do the same on some of their turns...

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