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Thread: Judging Davis and White

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    If you watch V/M for their mistakes in great detail one should do the same for D/W. There is snow spraying out of DW's blades when they are attempting to skate close together almost all the time. This part at 3:46-3:49 ish, they transition from her leaping over him into a face to face hold. Yet, they struggle to maintain a good closed hold (very unfinished) and they don't cover much ice. Why? Look at their blades, they are stepping down on the ice, not on a deep edge. Again at 4:25-4:27.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0imqv_BxuM

    Their choreography has lots of small hops, jumps and leaping. Yes, it accentuates the music beat but they also skate on shallower edges (MUCH shallower than V/M).

    And no offense, but "gliding on edges"? The first part of V/M's FD before their lift, is gliding on edges. What Charlie is doing to swing Meryl during lifts I would hardly call gliding on edges.

    It's interesting you mention Charlie's footwork. He toe pushes sometimes (look at that part in his midline step sequence in the SD at GPF), not the same depth or power as Moir.
    We are comparing OLYMPIC PERFORMANCES here, if you have to pull out video's from GPF to support your claims, that's irrelevant. And mind you, there are 2 types of lifts, 1 is a holding lift where the man glides on edge, the other one is a rotational lift where the man rotates on the ice. I think we'd better compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

    And you really think have small hops, jumps, leaping intertwined with edges are easy? That's how skaters create interesting vertical negative space on the ice. Think about running from 1 spot to another while keep going up and down along the way, it's not easy at all and very taxing on the knees. People always go gaga when Canadian's own Kurt Browning is skating the same way on the ice.

    And take notice, I only hear crying foul about judges' scandal only coming from the media. Canskate even brushed it off. If there's real judge bribing happening, do you think Canskate will be an ostrich and keep quiet about it?

  2. #32
    Matt K
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    That's the point of the game - get the levels, get +GOEs from the bullets you satisfy technically. Why "extend and hold it longer" if then you are going to run out of space in the rink while you extend and hold ALL your turns. V/M do the same on some of their turns...
    Huh? You won't run out of space in the rink while you extend. Look at VM's circular. Their ice coverage is a bit bigger in that pattern (at least at GPF) because they hold and COMPLETE their movements using longer edges. No need to hide by skating edge to edge for a nanosecond each and hardly extending lines. Which is why their edge quality and blade control are the best. Another good example is Domnina/Shabalin's 2009 FD circular. They completed each turn and matched each line. Amplitude that results in bigger circular step sequence.

  3. #33
    Matt K
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbgarfield View Post
    We are comparing OLYMPIC PERFORMANCES here, if you have to pull out video's from GPF to support your claims, that's irrelevant. And mind you, there are 2 types of lifts, 1 is a holding lift where the man glides on edge, the other one is a rotational lift where the man rotates on the ice. I think we'd better compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

    And you really think have small hops, jumps, leaping intertwined with edges are easy? That's how skaters create interesting vertical negative space on the ice. Think about running from 1 spot to another while keep going up and down along the way, it's not easy at all and very taxing on the knees. People always go gaga when Canadian's own Kurt Browning is skating the same way on the ice.

    And take notice, I only hear crying foul about judges' scandal only coming from the media. Canskate even brushed it off. If there's real judge bribing happening, do you think Canskate will be an ostrich and keep quiet about it?
    LOL. If you talk about Olympic performances then my argument still remains.

    And you really think have small hops, jumps, leaping intertwined with edges are easy? That's how skaters create interesting vertical negative space on the ice. Think about running from 1 spot to another while keep going up and down along the way, it's not easy at all and very taxing on the knees

    I think you should watch pairs, you'd like it more. Jumping up and down is not ice dancing, my goodness! Sorry but did I just read that?!

  4. #34
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    JEEZ, I have never heard so much kvetching over an ice dance result. For god's sake, Davis and White were silver medalists 4 years ago; it's not like they came out of nowhere. They were the younger, hungrier team. I think it can be argued that "Well, I prefer the Canadians over the Americans..." but to suggest that Davis and White are somehow UNWORTHY of the gold medal...or that SUBJECTIVELY SPEAKING, some people prefer THEIR skating to V/M. You HAVE to accept that both teams were wonderful, and that reasonable people can disagree. The only thing that separates D/W and V/M in my eyes is that V/M have been inconsistent the last 2 seasons (see: team event) and judges are people too. They see who's not making mistakes. They see who continually goes out there and produces the cleanest skate. They see everything, just like we do. That's going to be reflected in the component mark. Judges are human, lord.

    I'd also like to point out that Davis and White got straight 10s for Choreography/Composition, and Interpretation. That means that even the bloody Canadian judge (assuming there is one...ISU only lists "ISU" as the country anymore) gave them a perfect score. So shuddupaboutitalready.

    Humpf.

  5. #35
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    Too bad, the rules in ice dancing have changed. Those jumping up and down elements DO count as much as the ice dancing pattern itself. If it's the old system where they had CD's, V/M might have an edge. Blame the system not the judges. It's just like FS skaters could get by having level 1 spins in the old system and still won medals, it's NOT happening anymore under the new system.

  6. #36
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    Too bad, the rules in ice dancing have changed. Those jumping up and down elements DO count as much as the ice dancing pattern itself. If it's the old system where they had CD's, V/M might have an edge. Blame the system not the judges. It's just like FS skaters could get by having level 1 spins in the old system and still won medals, it's NOT happening anymore under the new system. And sure I'll watch pairs too, I was trained to judge in all disciplines.

  7. #37
    Matt K
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    Oh yeah, and I also think the Coomes/Buckland is picking up on D/W's bad tendencies. I think that means they'll be getting top 6 placement pretty soon.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    LOL. If you talk about Olympic performances then my argument still remains.
    No, it's not when you pull out a video from GPF. Competitions are about performance at the moment. In between competitions, there are also improvements and program fine tunings. If your GPF video link can be used as proofs for an Olympic performance, nobody needs to go to Sochi anymore, everybody just submit a video copy of past programs and be done with it.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbgarfield View Post
    No, it's not when you pull out a video from GPF. Competitions are about performance at the moment. In between competitions, there are also improvements and program fine tunings. If your GPF video link can be used as proofs for an Olympic performance, nobody needs to go to Sochi anymore, everybody just submit a video copy of past programs and be done with it.
    Can you find a copy on Youtube? Because I can't. I only downloaded the copies from fsvids and they do not allow me to distribute copies. Having seen the Olympic videos, my point remains stronger. In their SD, V/M's edges were deeper and held longer than D/W's, especially in the midline step sequence where it was very evident. V/M skated with deep edges, beautiful soft knees and carry their flow from one turn to the other . D/W had shallower edges during footwork, Meryl has stiff knees and need to run on the ice on flats to maintain the speed. V/M actually skated even closer at the hip in their circular step and faster too than their GPF performances.

    Why don't you watch their Olympic performances before judging? I have. Or if you want to watch jumping up and down that hurts the knees, watch a throw triple jump being performed in pairs.

  10. #40
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    Scott Moir himself said that his coach/choreographer gave them inferior programs this year and refused to work with them to work out all the problems they were having with it. He felt like they were "stuck in quicksand," watching Davis and White get farther and farther ahead. He was right. They had weak programs and Davis and White got farther and farther ahead, as reflected in the scoring.

  11. #41
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    I am responding to someone whose all 6 posts challenged what I said about the qualities of both skaters. If no one wants to challenge the scores or discuss qualities and differences of the skaters (USA's first gold medal in ice dance, yay!), that's fine. But I was asked to elaborate.

    If you don't like their material that's fine. That's your opinion. You can say whatever you feel like. I sure as heck won't try to stop you, unlike you.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    Why don't you watch their Olympic performances before judging? I have. Or if you want to watch jumping up and down that hurts the knees, watch a throw triple jump being performed in pairs.
    And yes, I have. I have even recorded it for judge's educational material so that I can rewatch, but I cannot post it because of copyright infringement. As I have stated before, too bad, the rules in ice dancing have changed. Those jumping up and down elements DO count as much as the ice dancing pattern itself. It's listed in the judges guidelines and judges skating materials. You either go with the flow and gain as much points as possible under COP system or get outdated and skate the old ways and risk placing lower under the current system. Time's changed and things go forward. BLAME THE SYSTEM AND NOT THE JUDGES OR SKATERS. If you think this is not the right direction for ice dancing, you can always write and complain to ISU, but these are the rules for judging right now which every judge needs to follow.

    And nowhere in the forum have I tried to stop you from saying what you want to say, right?

  13. #43
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    Actually, as a personal preference, I do prefer V/M's programs over D/W's programs most of the time for that overall romantic feelings on ice. But then as a judge following protocols, I have to put D/W over V/M because of judging guidelines. Got it?

  14. #44
    Matt K
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    It's not about romantic feelings on ice. It's not even about athleticism vs. chemistry. It's about skating skills and technique. Ice Dancing, you know. Certainly not jumping up and down on the ice. But hey, whatever rocks your boat.

  15. #45
    Matt K
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    Oh, and also, I have saved copies of all ice dance tapes to review as educational material as part of my judging duties. We are all judges. Every single one of us

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