The Judging Controversy Thread

spellbound · Mar 19, 2014

LRK said:
I don't think that was the case with the Swedish commentators, at any rate. Even after the scores came up they would say things like "I suppose that this means X go that jump ratified" or "that probably means Y got a downgrade on such-and-such".

This is not how I perceived it. IMHO, though I remember Filip Stiller as a factual and fair commentator back when tv4 sometimes broadcasted skating, his commentating on these Olympics was a mixed bag of Russian pro-bias and severe word diarheea to the extent that any informative content he might have contributed with took a hit. Honestly at times I wondered whether he was paid per word. Why bother explaining troublesome issues like protocols in-depth when you can just ramble.on.all.the.time.at.full.speed?

Among other things, to take the aftermath of Mao Asada's and Yuna Kim' freeskates as examples, they mentioned that Mao got the triple axel ratified as well as Yuna her second Lutz, which means they did have the access to protocols that they wanted. That Soviet-republic born Stiller was more interested in screaming about how amazing it was for Russia to win a first ladies' gold medal is another issue...

usethis2 · Mar 19, 2014

usethis2 said:
P.S. Does anyone know where the Youtube link that compares Adelina's TEB performance and Olympic performance? I lost it.

I'd like to have all the evidence in one place. ^^

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 19, 2014

capcomeback said:
All I know is that it was inappropriate for the announcers not to react to the scores and explain why the scores contradicted their analysis (or at least question the results if they did not agree with them).

The announcers did explain the reactions in their follow-ups. Johnny and Tara spoke with Bob Costas about the controvery (you can find the video on NBCOlympics.com) and Scott and Sandra spoke about the judging to the end of the LP broadcast. That they may have been surprised by the result doesn't necessarily mean they disagreed with them. I was surprised by the result but was happy about it. I find it a bit humorous that you think everyone who expressed agreement with the result secretly disagreed with the outcome. Most of the panel had Adelina ahead, and of those who didn't, most had her within a couple of points of Yuna.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 19, 2014

usethis2 said:
I'd like to have all the evidence in one place. ^^

What does the TEB score have to do with Adelina skating better than Yuna when they are compared side-by-side? If Adelina skated better she should win, not be held down by her score at some other competition where Yuna didn't participate.

Yuna tried to protect her scoring reputation by not skating against top competition unless she had to (like at Worlds) the last few years.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 19, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
What does the TEB score have to do with Adelina skating better than Yuna when they are compared side-by-side? If Adelina skated better she should win, not be held down by her score at some other competition where Yuna didn't participate.

I wouldn't mind seeing a comparison of Yuna at 2013 WC vs 2014 Olympics

ILuvYuna · Mar 19, 2014

Witt and Brownings reactions were based on what they saw and not going over the protocols. The NBC team was also a bit surprised but in interviews after all agreed with the result after looking at the protocols.

Sorry, but this is an empty argument. If I'm trying to get to the grocery store, and I SEE IT on my left as I drive by, and my smart phone app is telling me that it's another mile down the road, I am going to challenge what the smart phone app is telling me.

The map is not the terrain. The map is an interpretation of the terrain. The terrain is the only thing that's real.

Mathman · Mar 19, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
I wouldn't mind seeing a comparison of Yuna at 2013 WC vs 2014 Olympics

To me, Yuna's LP at 2013 worlds was magical, while her 2013 Olympics performance was merely excellent.

Alas, there is no line in the protocols for "magical-ness."

I do think, though, that Yuna's injury and subsequent loss of training time took its toll in the 2013-2014 season and the Olympics.

pangtongfan · Mar 19, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
If Adelina skated better she should win

and since she clearly didnt, that is a moot point.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 19, 2014

I♥Yuna;889365 said:
Sorry, but this is an empty argument. If I'm trying to get to the grocery store, and I SEE IT on my left as I drive by, and my smart phone app is telling me that it's another mile down the road, I am going to challenge what the smart phone app is telling me.

The map is not the terrain. The map is an interpretation of the terrain. The terrain is the only thing that's real.

OK this is just wrong. The winner is determined by who accrued the most points, not whose program looked the best. Yuna's program may have been more visually appealing but it didn't earn the most points. Only by looking at the protocols one can see how everything added up.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 19, 2014

pangtongfan said:
and since she clearly didnt, that is a moot point.

If six to seven judges disagree with you I think "clearly" she did. But continue relying on your biased friends who feel 30-to-1 that the outcome was wrong.

Anna K. · Mar 19, 2014

hanca said:
The question is, whether someone outside this forum actually cares about somewhere on forum being some 1000 pages of complaints about old results.

Face the fact: if no one else cares, it's one more reason to keep posting here. I actually counted on this when I made my prognosis :laugh:

Mathman · Mar 19, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
OK this is just wrong. The winner is determined by who accrued the most points, not whose program looked the best. Yuna's program may have been more visually appealing but it didn't earn the most points. Only by looking at the protocols one can see how everything added up.

This circumvents the argument, though. Certainly we can see by the protocols that Adelina accrued the most points because some of the judges smothered her with +3's and 9.75s. The debate is whether these scores were fairly earned or reflective instead of a predetermined agenda on the part of the judges and technical panel. There is no check box on the protocols for the judges to say yea or nay.

ILuvYuna · Mar 19, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
OK this is just wrong. The winner is determined by who accrued the most points, not whose program looked the best.

How can you judge quality of composition and execution if not by looking with your eyes? It's supposed to look good.

Yuna's program may have been more visually appealing but it didn't earn the most points.

Then there's something wrong with the practical methods and numerical valuations and calibrations that are being used to evaluate the content and quality of the programs. That's what I'm challenging here = the scoring and judging systems. IMO, they are flawed.

Only by looking at the protocols one can see how everything added up.

I can see how it added up (ie, I can see the map on my phone). What I"m trying to say is that those numbers are not an accurate reflection of the value of the overall content and quality of those programs (at least, according to the standards of the people who disagree with the results).

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 19, 2014

Mathman said:
The debate is whether these scores were fairly earned or reflective instead of a predetermined agenda on the part of the judges and technical panel. There is no check box on the protocols for the judges to say yea or nay.

Despite convincing evidence that includes hugs, leaving a press conference too early, a corrupt judge from a country that is currently anti-Russia, and extreme scrutiny of the technical elements of one skater, I'm not sold. Again, six or seven judges had to be "in on it" for this result to happen in a corrupt manner. Almost every judge had Adelina within a very close margin of Yuna, if not ahead. None of the judges looked at TEB as a score ceiling for Adelina when they were able to compare Yuna and the Russian side-by-side. Of everything presented in these 200+ pages, what are you latching on to as something resembling a conspiracy? You seem reasonable and sold on this idea so I'd like to know how this is all playing out in your head.

Mathman · Mar 19, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
Despite convincing evidence that includes hugs, leaving a press conference too early, a corrupt judge from a country that is currently anti-Russia, and extreme scrutiny of the technical elements of one skater, I'm not sold. Again, six or seven judges had to be "in on it" for this result to happen in a corrupt manner. Almost every judge had Adelina within a very close margin of Yuna, if not ahead. None of the judges looked at TEB as a score ceiling for Adelina when they were able to compare Yuna and the Russian side-by-side. Of everything presented in these 200+ pages, what are you latching on to as something resembling a conspiracy? You seem reasonable and sold on this idea so I'd like to know how this is all playing out in your head.

Are you talking to me? I am not latching on to anything. I am saying that the looking at the protocols cannot resolve the question of whether or not any of the judges or tech panel were up to no good.

Maybe they were, maybe they weren't, but this information is not revealed by the protocols.

ILuvYuna · Mar 19, 2014

Mathman said:
The debate is whether these scores were fairly earned or reflective instead of a predetermined agenda on the part of the judges and technical panel.

The way I feel about the problem of corrupt judging is that it stems from a combination of 3 things 1.)the leeway they are given by ambiguous judging criteria and rules 2.) An irrational, and disorganized judging format (ie, duties of the technical panel and duties of the judges) and 3.) anonymity.

Those three things create the perfect environment for cheating, and they need to change.

I don't care so much about covert agendas that may or may not be pursued by the different federations, because nobody can really prove anything. It's just gossip & speculation.

pangtongfan · Mar 19, 2014

It is funny how every single page you go into since the games has drivingmissdaisy with half the posts. For someone supposably so sure of Sotnikova's win (yeah right) and so sure it isnt a controversy to people (rotfl) she/he sure wastes alot of time trying to convince and brainwash others (or himself?) of that.

Rubirosa · Mar 19, 2014

jaylee said:
PCS saved Mao Asada from the humiliation of not qualifying for the FS. In the SP, her base value was lower than almost every other skater who qualified. Her TES was lower than every other skater who qualified.

Base value, GOE, and PCS all matter to all skaters. Accept it. There was no philosophy of "winning for name" and no philosophy of depending just on GOE and PCS.

Mao was #27 in TES in SP. You think her PCS should be lower than Isadora's from Brazil, Glebova's from Estonia or V. Helgesson from Sweden?

It's ISU that would be humiliated when now we know how Mao skated FS. If all scores Base Value, GOE, PCS mattered to all skater fairly, Mao's PCS result in FS would be 1st, not Yuna's. But then Yuna would get bronze. Judges secure her silver medal, if you are still looking for the controversy.

Mrs. P said:
Yuna is not the only skater to try to gain points through quality, i.e.GOE. I don't think it is arrogant to strategize your programs.

Yuna was the only OGM contender who entered the Games with #9 program of difficulty. No one did the same. Yuzu, Patrick, Adelina, Caro, pair skaters, dancers? They all challenged. Yuna didn't have a choice. She said that she did everything she could in Sochi. It was her top. She had to count on her reputation points in PCS and GOE because she couldn't skate more difficult program. She lost. This strategy lost. I see its fair game.

DarR · Mar 19, 2014

Mathman said:
This circumvents the argument, though. Certainly we can see by the protocols that Adelina accrued the most points because some of the judges smothered her with +3's and 9.75s. The debate is whether these scores were fairly earned or reflective instead of a predetermined agenda on the part of the judges and technical panel. There is no check box on the protocols for the judges to say yea or nay.

Agreed. While the protocols show how many points each skater has been awarded in terms of the elements they performed (BV+GOE=TES) and the PCS they received, it doesn't tell us why they were given that certain GOE or PCS. Whether it was fairly awarded, casual viewers like us wouldn't understand. The IJS was implemented to reduce scoring subjectivity, but how can we say judges are being objective when they score for instance, Adelina's 3F with +1.50 GOE versus Yuna's 3F with +1.20 GOE versus Kostner's 3F with +1.20 GOE versus Julia's 3F with +1.30 GOE. Personally I thought Adelina and Julia were overscored in this instance, among others.

pangtongfan · Mar 19, 2014

I thought Adelina's triple flip being deemed better than Kim's was funny enough but Julia's being deemed better than both Kim's and Kostner's takes the cake. I didnt even bother looking at Julia's protocals, but it wouldnt surprise me if her triple flutz that was landed probably got more points than Yu Na's too, lol!

The Judging Controversy Thread

spellbound

usethis2

drivingmissdaisy

drivingmissdaisy

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

ILuvYuna

Mathman

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

drivingmissdaisy

drivingmissdaisy

Anna K.

Mathman

ILuvYuna

drivingmissdaisy

Mathman

ILuvYuna

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

Rubirosa

Match Penalty

DarR

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

Similar threads

Connect with us