The Judging Controversy Thread

R.D. said:

Have you a link? Not trying to be confrontational but I'm genuinely interested in what happened here.

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AFAIK, there's a video of Yuna answering the last question of the press conference (I don't have the link on hand); the camera zooms in on Yuna when she starts to answer, and Adelina is there when she starts to answer but not there when Yuna finishes.

And as far as I know, there's no video of Yuna's interviews the next day when she was asked about Adelina's leaving. Yuna's response was that typically the medalists finish and walk out together, but Sotnikova left. Yuna also pointed out that Adelina got there before her and was answering questions before her, and that Adelina still had her dress on. Yuna said she wasn't sure what was going on when Adelina left, but it was up to the skater to do what they want to do.

I don't see why what happened is a reason to hate on either Adelina or Yuna. It just seems like a non-issue to me that fans on either side are distorting.

This video shows the "incident". It really seems silly to me.
http://youtu.be/0OmCFxqU8eQ

jaylee said:

And as far as I know, there's no video of Yuna's interviews the next day when she was asked about Adelina's leaving. Yuna's response was that typically the medalists finish and walk out together, but Sotnikova left. Yuna also pointed out that Adelina got there before her and was answering questions before her, and that Adelina still had her dress on. Yuna said she wasn't sure what was going on when Adelina left, but it was up to the skater to do what they want to do.

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Maybe she couldn't wait any longer to use the bathroom.

Sam-Skwantch said:

This video shows the "incident". It really seems silly to me.
http://youtu.be/0OmCFxqU8eQ

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yes.. that's indeed silly.. only the media who made a big deal out of it in korea and of course the crazy bots from anywhere in the world..

Well this incident as well as subsequent reactions was widely circulated on the Chinese news media next day from different perspectives.
Take for instance these articles from Chinese MSN, Sina and QQ (largest online portal for China)

http://roll.msn.com.cn/roll/20140221/1012246485.shtml
("宿敌"日本记者为金妍儿鸣冤:在平昌她必夺冠 Even Arch Nemesis Japanese Reporters claim unfairness for Kim: At PyeongChang She'd have won.)

http://sports.qq.com/a/20140221/003431.html
(欧美记者追问俄冠军：哪个动作做得好分数高? EuroUS media confront the Russian Champion, which element do you think deserve higher score Translation below)

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2014-02-21/06047032710.shtml
(Sina News 女王再见!金妍儿留下最优雅背影 钢铁蝴蝶经典永驻 Queen Goodbye! Kim Yuna leaves most elegantly, Classic Iron ButterFly Forever)

http://sports.qq.com/a/20140221/002923.htm
(金妍儿配得上冠军 她输给俄主场优势 Kim deserve to be the champion, she lost to Russia home advantage Zhang Dan comments.)

I can only speculate Adelina left early because she felt uncomfortable with the line of questions. In the report, they mentioned when Sotnikova walked into the press room, the entire Russian presscorp wildly applauded but awkwardly no other international reporter clapped for this 17 years old young lady. Earlier in the media room, international press were dumb founded at the scores, with a member of the Japanese media even joked "If this had been in PyeongChang, Yuna would have easily got the gold" hint Russia's home advantage was the reason.

The report said:

An editor from a major sport paper remarked although Adelina performed well, she did not land clean, Yuna was almost flawless so he did no not understand the score. Japanese and Korean press has never got on well together, but even Japan were calling foul on her behalf.

“冠军的分数实在是太高了，你不觉得么？”赛后混采区，《产经新闻》记者这样对记者说道。“金妍儿的表演非常完美，她配的上冠军。”该记者这样说道，力挺金妍儿。

Comment over heard from Japanese press members (Sankei?) "The Gold score is so high, do you think it was deserved?", "Yuna Kim's performance was excellent, she deserve the gold" come back the reply supporting Kim.

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In the press conference report, Sotnikova got asked "Your TES were 5 points higher than Yuna kim, which of the jumps, spins do you think deserve such high marks" Some European/American reporter challenged her.

"Today I told myself, to trust myself and enjoy the competition...." Sotnikova replied trying to avoid this question. The reporter was not satisfied, he pursued the same line of questions. "I think I prepared well, and was focused more during the competition" Sotnikova frustrately answered.

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Personally I wish someone just post the whole press conference and leaves the reader to make their own mind up.

So the press conference happened right after the ceremony, didn't it? I think the reporter's question itself was okay, but it's too harsh to say the Adelina's reply was avoiding.

To me, it seems like the press was like attacking the skaters. They avoided the fact that all the skaters did was performing, not judging and scoring.

They could ask the coaches, the judges, some specialists about PCS/TES. Not to mention, most skaters did not even watch other skaters' performance, so it's difficult for them to compare themselves with others.

They can't judge themselves. The judges gave them the score. Even if there were some cheating/inflation, the skaters themselves might never know the truth behind.

If I got it right, skaters are controlled by their federation to some extent. So the questions towards skater about scoring, even though I don't think it's wrong to ask, but somehow, I have a feeling it's inappropriate.

os168 said:

Earlier in the media room, international press were dumb founded at the scores, with a member of the Japanese media even joked "If this had been in PyeongChang, Yuna would have easily got the gold" hint Russia's home advantage was the reason.

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And with these 3 skates in Torino, guess who would have come out on top?

^
Makes me remember the movie Australia: That's how it is but is it how it should be?

drivingmissdaisy said:

And with these 3 skates in Torino, guess who would have come out on top?

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Quite honestly? If the judging is truly objective, Yuna Kim - anywhere in the world, including Russia, Japan, Italy or even Mars.

drivingmissdaisy said:

And with these 3 skates in Torino, guess who would have come out on top?

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Kostner of course, but this proves what exactly? Asada would have the LP phase had the Games been in Japan too I would add. The very fact each skater would have won in their own country anytime the skaters are even in the same ballpark or state is majorly f-ed up, and only shows the credability of skating and skating judging is now at an all time low. It should not be an advantage for anyone to skate in Canada, United States, Japan, Russia, Korea, or Australia. It should be absolutely meaningless as far as the judging goes. Such is not reality though, which we are likely to be reminded again with the world in Japan and the scores of Hanyu and Asada (especialy if they make serious mistakes and need the help of home ice), as we have seen many times with Chan and others in Canada, etc...

pangtongfan said:

Kostner of course, but this proves what exactly? Asada would have the LP phase had the Games been in Japan too I would add. The very fact each skater would have won in their own country anytime the skaters are even in the same ballpark or state is majorly f-ed up, and only shows the credability of skating and skating judging is now at an all time low. It should not be an advantage for anyone to skate in Canada, United States, Japan, Russia, Korea, or Australia. It should be absolutely meaningless as far as the judging goes. Such is not reality though, which we are likely to be reminded again with the world in Japan and the scores of Hanyu and Asada (especialy if they make serious mistakes and need the help of home ice), as we have seen many times with Chan and others in Canada, etc...

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Mao should have probably won the FS anywhere in the world (certainly over Adelina).

As far as Adelina's "behavior", she should be cut some slack. She is only seventeen. Still...

1 She should not have created a log jam in the victory lap. It was poor sportsmanship and could have created an injury to herself or another skater.

2. She should have stayed at the press conference. it is a respectful thing to do. Her coaches and handlers should have told her this.

3. She should have gone to the Worlds. As the Olympic Champion, you can't tell em that if she had insisted, she would not have been allowed to go. In many people's mind, she has a lot to prove. If she doesn't feel that way, so be it, but it just increases the controversy that Russia feels that she's not good enough to repeat what she did at Sochi (let alone improve on it).

pangtongfan said:

The very fact each skater would have won in their own country anytime the skaters are even in the same ballpark or state is majorly f-ed up, and only shows the credability of skating and skating judging is now at an all time low. It should not be an advantage for anyone to skate in Canada, United States, Japan, Russia, Korea, or Australia. It should be absolutely meaningless as far as the judging goes.

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This is not a new trend at all. From the GP events, to Worlds and even the Olympics, the home country advantage is very real, and always has been. The judging panel sits in between the audience and the skaters and all of the energy from the crowd passes right through them. For a TV audience sitting at home, it is hard to comprehend how that reaction can affect a human being tasked with evaluating a performance.

drivingmissdaisy said:

This is not a new trend at all. From the GP events, to Worlds and even the Olympics, the home country advantage is very real, and always has been.

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That does not make it acceptable, and it is in fact far worse under IJS than it was under 6.0 which proves IJS does not work. Atleast under 6.0 you even had some close decisions go against the home town skater:

2000 worlds ice dancing and pairs- While Anissina & Peizerat clearly won the gold with by far the best FD they barely lost the OD on a 5-4 split to Fusar Poli & Margalio, when both teams performed at a similar level. Abitol & Bernandis lost 3rd place in the short program on a 5-4 split to Sale & Pelletier of Canada which was a close call and in fact probably wrong since S&P had a major error on a spin and A&B were perfect.

2001 worlds ice dancing- Bourne Kraatz of host Canada lost the bronze by a 5-4 split to the Russian team of Lobacheva & Averbuhk. Most experts in fact believed B&S skated better and were robbed, and they still lose a close decision (which most thought was wrong) in their home country.

2002 SLC pairs- Ina & Zimmerman lost 4th place (which would have been the bronze if Shen & Zhao skating last didnt perform well) on a 5-4 split to Totmianina & Marinin, which was a close call, and in fact again most believe I&Z skated better and should have been ahead.

2003 worlds mens- While it was not a close decision on the judging panel, most thought that Plushenko vs Goebel was a close call given how both skated, and that perhaps Goebel even should have been the winner. Plushenko not only won the LP (and thus the gold, which Goebel would have won had he won the LP) but it was one sided in his favor.

Those are just the last years of 6.0 as I dont feel like taking the time of doing a run down of a whole 30 years, although I could. As you can see not only did many close decisions go against the home skaters, but even in some instances it was slightly disputed the home skater didnt come ahead. Which certainly proves the home country bias was minimal to non existent, and not even approaching what it has become since the inception of the new vague and open IJS. The farces of IJS, especialy for the power and corrupt federations of Russia, Japan, Canada, began in earnest in its first full season, at the 2005 worlds Slutskaya on Russian ice with 2 major errors in the short program still winning the short program at worlds in Russia over clean Kwan, clean Cohen, clean Kostner with a triple-triple:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQi2HcUZFu0

...and went downhill from there.

drivingmissdaisy said:

And with these 3 skates in Torino, guess who would have come out on top?

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FYI... to prove my point. Here're reaction from the Italian Sky commentary team posted earlier today by an Italian member of Golden Yuna Facebook group. English translation and original video credit to Emil Petrov, I am posting this video with his permission.

The subtitles colour codes are: Silvia Fontana (2 time Olympian and retired figure skater in white), Danilo Freri (blue) and Massimiliano Ambesi (green), both for Sky Italia.

http://vimeo.com/89457478


Downloadable .avi made available via Emil's drop box http://www.dropbox.com/s/4ee7z9hc1ifrd99/people_talking_fast.avi

Sam-Skwantch said:

This video shows the "incident". It really seems silly to me.
http://youtu.be/0OmCFxqU8eQ

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Thanks for sharing. (Not sure why it was so heavily edited though...)

the comments...

There's a lot to criticize about what happened but I don't think this is THAT big of a deal.

Sotnikova is still active on her Instagram account so seems like the naysayers have not scared her off...

Rubirosa said:

And the same as in 2013 when she won. No changes in her prog for 3 years, no pushing bondaries and no bravery in challenging her limits. Good for this sport that such philosophy lost. I am very happy for coming generations that now they have such example and logo: challenge yourself or you won't be rewarded for name alone.

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What a dumb comment. I see this kind of comment only in FS. Let me ask you: If Michael Phelps shows up in consecutive Olympics and wins 4 medals without breaking a record, he doesn't deserve the medals? I mean, what the heck. And plenty of people liked Yuna's new programs and she herself commented before the event that her new programs were the hardest she had ever done. I would trust the athlete's words over an ignorant armchair revisionist. What program do you think Adelina skated? Do you think she showcased some brand-new tricks or concepts? She re-used her junior programs, for pete's sake.

Rubirosa said:

In SP Yuna had a higher BV over Sotnikova 1.00. In LP Sotnikova had a higher BV over Yuna 3.94 points. The difference between level 3 and 4 step sequence is 0.60 point. It wouldn't help.

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It would, because BOTH of their footwork sequences were called incorrectly. That's a 1.2 point base value difference, plus it changes the GOE points. Sotnikova's 3Lutz+3Toe was also not called as underrotated, which is another 1.2 point difference. Like I already said, Sotnikova only had a base value advantage of 0.54 over Yu-Na if everything was called correctly.

usethis2 said:

What a dumb comment. I see this kind of comment only in FS. Let me ask you: If Michael Phelps shows up in consecutive Olympics and wins 4 medals without breaking a record, he doesn't deserve the medals? I mean, what the heck. And plenty of people liked Yuna's new programs and she herself commented before the event that her new programs were the hardest she had ever done. I would trust the athlete's words over an ignorant armchair revisionist. What program do you think Adelina skated? Do you think she showcased some brand-new tricks or concepts? She re-used her junior programs, for pete's sake.

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Well, it depends. Michael Phelps wouldn't win the medals if 3 people finished before him. And Yuna's LP, though choreographically more difficult than her previous programs, did not break new ground in technical elements.

But you give Sotnikova and her choreographer far too much credit. She didn't re-use her junior programs. She used programs that were worse than her junior programs. So Kim still deserved gold overall.

After watching the Italian and hearing of the reaction to the Canadian, German and British broadcasts of the results, all I can say is shame on NBC for being cowardly in not questioning what they had just witnessed.

After telling us that Adelina would get a big technical score and that she is not the same artist or component skater that Carolina Kostner is (and after citing their age difference implying as to Carolina being more advanced), Scott and Sandra did not question Adelina's PCS when it was virtually as large as the huge TES they predicted she would get (and that she outscored the skater they were unfavorably comparing Adelina to).

My theory is that because after what happened in SLC in 2002, Scott and Sandra (and Johnny and Tara for that matter) were told beforehand not to make waves (if anything controversial happened) "for the good of the sport". With gagged commentators and anonymous judging, corruption would be able to run rampant. I hope Christine Brennan from the media and other former skaters/commentators like Katarina Witt, Kurt Browning, Dick Button and others continue to speak out and we can get some changes in this sport.

Hi Guys.

New to the forum here. And I’ve been dying to ask some questions, and many of you know really know your stuff. So here I go.

1) Ok. The results of this event was just pure disgusting. I kept thinking, like what era am I living in? This made me wonder if fixing scores are rampant in figure skating. I think one of the reasons as to why Yuna wants to finish or retired from competitive skating is that not only is she feel pressured to do well, but the mere fact that there are things that she cannot control such as unfair judging. I am sure that everyone in the figure skating community let alone the general public, knows that this whole thing is rigged. Like Come On! Do you know if Yuna has faced unfair scores because of politics? Korea is still a developing country, and it has a lot to prove as time comes. I hear that Japan and other countries have a lot of business sponsors, and people rely on them because figure skating is a big business. Thus, giving inflated scores to those countries who provided sponsorship.

2) Does Yuna have friends? I don’t mean to ask this in a bad way, but I always see her by herself. Without a doubt that she may feel lonely because she is up there in her own league, but I feel that with being in the Crickett Club and just seeing familiar faces every competition, there’s got to be some friendship forming along those years. I would just hate to see these friendships break if stupid politics jump in. Also, are a lot of skaters jealous of Yuna? I mean she is the Queen, and I’m pretty sure figure skaters like Michelle Kwan, probably knows that Yuna is a bigger deal than she ever was. She even got to go internationally to skate and bring herself out there.

3) I understand that Adios Ninos was a tango and it’s really tough to perform it. But, I was wondering why she didn’t keep her Les Miserables program if it got so much support and clearly have shown that without a doubt that if she performs without any mistake, she will be the champion no matter what. I feel that the program will capture a lot of audience and yes even the Russians. Is it perhaps that she knows that Olympics doesn’t matter to her but she just wants to keep offering her fans new stuff?

4) Brian Orser. Did Brian Orser back Yuna in any way after the Sochi game? I mean the reason why he is well known is merely because of Yuna. I feel like in a way Brian owes her his support as to why things are going right now.

5) If the politics did play a great role, would you think Russia would have played this game with different countries? Let say for example if Brian was still coaching Yuna, would Russia still give her a silver medal? I feel like things would have been much more different because Russia would not able to face the criticism from bigger countries like Canada, America, and Japan while they are still playing with politics with these figure skaters, which is a great shame.

6) How is Adelina taking this. I assume that she knows deeply in heart that she does not deserve this. I can understand that she lived the moment and could have been just the fact that she was the champion, but I’m pretty sure there was also a big punch in her heart, knowing that she is the champion and Yuna below her. I hear that she is not going to the worlds and doing shows instead. This is probably the best for her because she knows she will not even finish on the podium, but seriously, it’s sooner or later that things will turn and she will have to come clean at least in interviews as time comes. I just felt that it was pathetic of her to think that she deserves the gold and wants to win every golds out there. Child please. I hope she just mans up and tell how she really feels because that’s all it takes.

7) Russia. How are Russians taking this after seeing how it has become a big controversy. I don’t want to be rude, but there has got to be plenty of people who disagree with the results. However, I never see any Russian articles small or big, talking about the controversy and getting honest answers from people and experts. It just have less respect as a nation itself and the people in it. It is a shame. Also, I just didn’t like the Russian coaches and even the one who coached Mao. They just seem very superficial and cold.

8) How has Korea changed with Yuna and her success. I am guessing that things will change (hopefully) in terms of funding these athletes who can become champions. I think the story of Yuna is more honorable than her success itself. I heard that she had to practice at amusement parks, and went through so many things that were unfair to her and had no control over. With that said, are there more ice rinks, clubs, etc for these skaters?

9) How does figure skating for Korea look like? I am assuming that there are kids who want to be like Yuna, and I’m pretty sure they will collect talents as well. Any junior skaters that maybe close to Yuna? The whole things is just very interesting because Yuna is such a gem, because she is the only one ever there was from Korea and have set World Records where capable and gifted countries cannot offer.

10) What are your opinions with the future of this controversy. I surely don’t want this to die down, but I can see where Yuna comes from. I guess this whole thing has actually got her even more famous because simply Russia played dirty trick with the wrong person. I am glad that people are going through this with her, and god knows what she had to go through by herself.

Sorry for the rant guys, but I hope to get some of these questions answered by you. It’s just sickening that things like this are happening currently. Speaking of which, what’s the average IQ for people of the Soviet Countries? I think the judges made fools out of themselves.