The Judging Controversy Thread | Page 169 | Golden Skate

The Judging Controversy Thread

ILuvYuna

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
I think the idea of the 6.0 system is that it was an ordinal system. It was the responsibility of each judge, at the end of the day, to rank the skaters: this one was best, that one second best, etc. The 5.7s and 5.8s served as a course filter and mnemonic aid, and were not intended to have much meaning standing alone. This is where the idea of "leaving room" came from -- you couldn't score the first skater too high because you can't have any ties and there are only so many possible scores scores higher than, say, 5.8, 5.9.

Thank you, I understand it now. *boggled*

This system had two advantages. First, a human judge can always tell, between two trees, this one is taller than that, even though he cannot tell how tall each is.

Yes, but if a human is trying to judge whether or not the fruit of a tree is ripe (does this skater show good technique on the lutz?), he need not compare it to any other tree. He only needs to know what ripe fruit looks and tastes like (does this skater enter the jump from a back outside edge?).

Second, in so far as figure skating has a performance art component, it is a judged activity not a measured one. Quality is judged, quantity is measured. The prize should go to the skater who skates best, not to the skater who skates most.

As it is today, it's being quantified into a numerical score, so what you say here is actually making a case for deleting the performance/execution component, and replacing it with ordinals, don't you think? I really hated the ordinals :no:

If the goal is to reduce natural ordinal judging to measurement, the only way to approach it is to line up a thousand programs off you tube, from terrible to heavenly, rank them from worst to best, and arbitrarily assign point values to each in small increments.

:laugh: I understand what you're saying, but let's conduct a very simple thought experiment ;)

Open this video in another tab, and I want you to do only one thing the entire time - look at her knees - ESPECIALLY during the step sequence and jump entrances: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K8b7cHXyWc

The component explanation on the isu's website lists the first criteria for SS as "Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement."

Question: do you think she could bend her knees just a little bit more during the step sequence - so be careful not to compare her to anybody else - compare only what you see during the step sequence and jump entrance, to the places in the program where her knees display a greater degree of bend and rhythmic action (like crossovers)?***

This concludes the thought experiment. What I wanted to show is that in order to determine how good Adelina's technique is, there is no need to wonder "But how good is her technique compared to Yuna's?" You need only ask yourself "How good is her technique?". First and foremost should be making sure that the judging criteria is holding everybody to the same yardstick - the textbook - and after that is sorted out, then we can look at how to quantify the quality of execution so that the skaters are automatically ranked (this is basically what they're attempting to do with the system we have now, true?).

Anyway, my hypothesis of how to do this (totally unproven, just Putin it out there :p) goes like this: no matter how big your scale is (6.0 or 10.0), if your increments are equal to the number of skaters in the competition +1 (for perfect 10) you will have enough room to accurately score the entire field. That's what I'm working on after I'm done with my alternative component explanations for the improvement thread.

***I can't pretend to know too much here, because I don't have the ice experience, but it's been discussed that she loses speed into the first jumping pass because of the steps, and gkelly gave me some insight on the stupid questions thread that using "rhythmic knee action" can help you generate speed during steps. This made sense to me b/c in a beginner's dance class, the instructor might have you do chasses across the floor, and you will notice that it's harder to do if your knees are stiff. It is easier to do if you bend your knees. So stupid question: could it be that the reason she loses speed in those two passes is because of poor "rhythmic knee action"? :slink:
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I'm sure Adelina would trade her GPF experience for a sack of potatoes.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
No, but it would be a big help in deciding whether we actually have sometime to complain about, or if we are just blowing wind.

For instance, if the judges were identified then we would know such things as:

1. A judge who gave much higher scores than his fellows to a particular skater -- is that judge from the same country as his favored skater?

2. If a judge gives extra-high scores to a particular skater, did that judge tend to give generous scores across the board, or was it selective?

3. If a judge gave extra-high scores to one skater and a judge gave extra-low scores to that skater's rival, is it the same judge or two different judges?

4. Is there statistical evidence that judges number #3 and #7 are working together?

If we knew the answers we would have something to talk about, instead of firing broadsides in the dark.

All of these would answer complaints about two judges. The margin was not about two judges. Choose any 2 Adelina scores to drop and 2 Yuna scores to drop and Adelina would still win. Why is there some obsession with these two judges when their scores were in no way outcome determinative? Each of Adelina's PCS scores were within a range of one point in judges' marks. Five different judges gave her at least one 9.75.
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
All of these would answer complaints about two judges. The margin was not about two judges. Choose any 2 Adelina scores to drop and 2 Yuna scores to drop and Adelina would still win. Why is there some obsession with these two judges when their scores were in no way outcome determinative? Each of Adelina's PCS scores were within a range of one point in judges' marks. Five different judges gave her at least one 9.75.

It's not just the two judges. There are questions about two others. There are also questions about the tech panel.
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Well, that's four. Five judges gave Adelina 151+. So at least one judge who is not being questioned marked Adelina's program as high as the four "suspected" cheaters.

Oops... forgot about Judge 1 :laugh: All those 2 GOEs look inconspicuous, but those bottom 3 marks (in particular) on CPS were a joke.
 

usethis2

Medalist
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
This is yet another hijack attempt which frankly sucks to read (only through quotes) after some 200 pages. The question is whether the judges gave correct/honest marks and calls in these Olympics. You cannot use those very questioned marks as if they were proof. I cannot believe this. We have come a long way to learn incorrect calls made by tech panel and selective inflation of certain skaters' marks thanks to some very knowledgeable members as well as information we gathered along the way. Let's not fall into this highly unintelligent trap.

P.S. Please have a decency and manners to think before posting. The number of posts has little to do with persuasion. Impromptu posts only make yourself look dumb. (Though I find the similarity very interesting between that and all things Sochi, i.e. drowning tactic )
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
This is yet another hijack attempt which frankly sucks to read (only through quotes) after some 200 pages. The question is whether the judges gave correct/honest marks and calls in these Olympics. You cannot use those very questioned marks as if they were proof. I cannot believe this. We have come a long way to learn incorrect calls made by tech panel and selective inflation of certain skaters' marks thanks to some very knowledgeable members as well as information we gathered along the way. Let's not fall into this highly unintelligent trap.

P.S. Please have a decency and manners to think before posting. The number of posts has little to do with persuasion. Impromptu posts only make yourself look dumb. (Though I find the similarity very interesting between that and all things Sochi, i.e. drowning tactic )

Please note my use of the emoticon in my post. I understand that this goes well beyond honest judging. DMD and others are using the scores to try to validate the result without trying to assess why we're concerned with the process.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
It's not just the two judges. There are questions about two others. There are also questions about the tech panel.

While I dont remember each exact judge I do remember when looking at the panel pre event most of the judges were an ex Soviet republic.

Not to mention in the last 12 years all the ex Soviet judges who now judge for new countries. Seeing names at competitions like Alla from Finland, Oleg from Hungary, Anton from Australia, what an epic joke.
 

Nadya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
This is yet another hijack attempt which frankly sucks to read (only through quotes) after some 200 pages. The question is whether the judges gave correct/honest marks and calls in these Olympics. You cannot use those very questioned marks as if they were proof. I cannot believe this. We have come a long way to learn incorrect calls made by tech panel and selective inflation of certain skaters' marks thanks to some very knowledgeable members as well as information we gathered along the way. Let's not fall into this highly unintelligent trap.

P.S. Please have a decency and manners to think before posting. The number of posts has little to do with persuasion. Impromptu posts only make yourself look dumb. (Though I find the similarity very interesting between that and all things Sochi, i.e. drowning tactic )
Are you under the impression you can control what other people do or think? What's with ordering folks around?
 

Nadya

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
While I dont remember each exact judge I do remember when looking at the panel pre event most of the judges were an ex Soviet republic.

Not to mention in the last 12 years all the ex Soviet judges who now judge for new countries. Seeing names at competitions like Alla from Finland, Oleg from Hungary, Anton from Australia, what an epic joke.
Which judges do you think came from ex-Soviet republics?

I am also interested in your definition of "most."
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
It is great the Sotbots are helping to keep this thread going. After all a thread that reaches 10, 000 pages about Sotnikova's comedic win will make her look all the better in the end wont it. :laugh:
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
While I dont remember each exact judge I do remember when looking at the panel pre event most of the judges were an ex Soviet republic.

Not to mention in the last 12 years all the ex Soviet judges who now judge for new countries. Seeing names at competitions like Alla from Finland, Oleg from Hungary, Anton from Australia, what an epic joke.

Names alone could not prove that they are Soviet judges, you know. Not to mention, when you claim something like that happen, we need proof to believe it to be true.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
For what it's worth, I was looking at Yuna's impressive record on Wikipedia and I noticed that she finished 40 points higher in Vancouver than she did at the Grand Prix Final and 18 points higher than her previous season high. She did skate better at Vancouver, but 40 points higher?
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
For what it's worth, I was looking at Yuna's impressive record on Wikipedia and I noticed that she finished 40 points higher in Vancouver than she did at the Grand Prix Final and 18 points higher than her previous season high. She did skate better at Vancouver, but 40 points higher?

for what it's worth.. she didn't make a single mistake.. not even a two footed landing..

and after she got those record scores.. the ISU changes the rules in the next season..
 

qwertyskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
I think the idea of the 6.0 system is that it was an ordinal system. It was the responsibility of each judge, at the end of the day, to rank the skaters: this one was best, that one second best, etc. The 5.7s and 5.8s served as a course filter and mnemonic aid, and were not intended to have much meaning standing alone. This is where the idea of "leaving room" came from -- you couldn't score the first skater too high because you can't have any ties and there are only so many possible scores scores higher than, say, 5.8, 5.9.

This system had two advantages. First, a human judge can always tell, between two trees, this one is taller than that, even though he cannot tell how tall each is.

Second, in so far as figure skating has a performance art component, it is a judged activity not a measured one. Quality is judged, quantity is measured. The prize should go to the skater who skates best, not to the skater who skates most.



I do not think this is possible. If the goal is to reduce natural ordinal judging to measurement, the only way to approach it is to line up a thousand programs off you tube, from terrible to heavenly, rank them from worst to best, and arbitrarily assign point values to each in small increments. Then the judge could mentally say, well let's see, the program I just saw was better than the program on the list that scored 6.72 in interpretation, but not as good as the one that scored 6.78. I'll give it a 6.75.

In fact, I think this is pretty much what the judges actually do, internally, baring bias, etc.

The problem with "judging who skated best in real time" is that it disadvantages the skaters who skated first, since you have to see them all to know which is "best". Unfortunately, the competition unfolds in chronological order, there is very little real time to make decisions on the spot about the skate, not to mention compare it to other skates you've seen and need to recall. Although under CoP the first flights still suffer, at least someone like Dennis Ten is able to score enough points to make it to the Podium.

CoP does add a lot of objectivity in that it makes the score more transparent, easier to gauge more accurately in real time and it can be scrutinized by others. As such, there is a sizable silent majority out there who does agree with Adelina's win, whether they agree with the margin is another matter. Otherwise, the uproar would have come from many other figure skating quarters. Of course according to Adelina's detractors, there is NOTHING whatsoever in her skating that would place her above Yuna. In fact, there are many qualities in Adelina's skating that are superior, if one is being objective. Those who prefer Yuna's style of skating might deem those qualities unimportant, but under the Rules of the CoP, those qualities help Adelina to score.
 

qwertyskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
For what it's worth, I was looking at Yuna's impressive record on Wikipedia and I noticed that she finished 40 points higher in Vancouver than she did at the Grand Prix Final and 18 points higher than her previous season high. She did skate better at Vancouver, but 40 points higher?

Yes, this is what I mean, the criteria that cause this "outrage" were not universally applied, eg. this quad's PCS inflation, Yuna's own PCS inflation in the past, but *only* to Adelina. This is what I find odd, that all of these "anomalies" (home inflation, PCS spike, etc.) have happened in the past with nary a protest.

I'm also amused how those who have hijacked many many threads, many many youtube videos, blogs, media, etc. are shutting out opposite opinions while declaring (with chutzpah) that they are the aggrieved party. :laugh:
 

bebevia

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Of course according to Adelina's detractors, there is NOTHING whatsoever in her skating that would place her above Yuna. In fact, there are many qualities in Adelina's skating that are superior, if one is being objective. Those who prefer Yuna's style of skating might deem those qualities unimportant, but under the Rules of the CoP, those qualities help Adelina to score.
I recommend a different direction if you want to support your opinion. The only thing objective is the techniques, which Sotnikova does not triumph. Even the subjective marks are not that convincing to majority.
 
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