The Judging Controversy Thread | Page 171 | Golden Skate

The Judging Controversy Thread

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
The difference between her SP from Skate America and Vancouver was 2.22 points or 2 percent. She got a tad higher PCS in the SP, 1.52 points or 4 percent.

The biggest difference came in her FS. 16 points, or a 12 percent difference.

However, Yuna had not skated a clean free program leading up to Vancouver. If some of you recall, she actually got beat by Rachael Flatt in the FS at Skate America after falling on her 3F, getting 3 downgrades (which what < was at the time and popping her 3Z into 2Z<. At Trophee Eric Bompard, she basically missed her 3F costing her 5.50 points. At the GPF she only did a 3Z-2T, UR on her 2A-3T with major -GOE

So add 5.5 points to her Trophee Eric Bompard FS TES (which was clean otherwise) and you got 73.05. That's just getting a 3F at base value. At Vancouver she got 1.80 GOE so add that..74.85.

The PCS difference was much higher at 8 percent or 5.36 points.

But if your recall the FS, the judges were giving out +GOE and +PCS like candy. Pretty much all the skaters who skated clean got a boost in +GOE and +PCS that night leading to a whole ton of personal bests. Joannie Rochette, for example, went from 56.72 at GPF to 68.48 in Vancouver. Laura Lepisto got 62.72 in Vancouver compared to 59.20 a few weeks earlier at Europeans.

So I don't think Yuna's score improve is that hard to explain.

Thanks for the breakdown, Mrs. P. I agree with your overall point, but I just want to add a few things:

Yuna got two level 3 spins and a level 3 spiral sequence at 2009 TEB FS, and got all level 4 spins/spirals at 2010 Olympics FS. So that, in addition to the added 3F and the GOE for the flip and spin levels (which increase with higher levels), increased Yuna's TES.

There was a PCS increase for the clean skaters in Vancouver, but I don't see the +GOE boost in Vancouver--for any skater. The way the judges did +GOE that season remained relatively consistent throughout the season, regardless of skater.

Yuna's 3Lz/3T received the exact same GOE in both Vancouver and TEB FS. Of her other 5 jumping passes, 4 of them received a mere +0.20 higher in Vancouver than in TEB, which is essentially the difference of ONE judge giving her an additional +1 to what the judge gave in TEB--it's a statistically meaningless difference. The only other significant difference was her 3S got +0.6 more at the Olympics than at TEB. Her 3S has an unexpected entry and a creative exit, and I suspect the TEB judges weren't able to accurately gauge how difficult that made the jump since it was her season debut and it was the first time they had seen that.

The Rochette and Lepisto examples aren't good examples because Rochette was terrible at the GPF and Lepisto was also better at the Olympics than at Europeans. However, PCS did increase overall at the Olympics versus the other competitions, but no single skater was the only beneficiary.
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
Ok guys seriously. Laying on your death bed, would you like to watch Yuna or Adelina perform? That's all really matters. Adelina delivered a good program for her level and talent, but it's just how she actually think she beat Yuna by her talent and technique is just laughable. For that matter of fact, I am sure little Koreans are going to be raged and all of them want to somehow to get the medal back for Yuna. I just hope that this controversy really fuels the Korean skaters because their work ethic is tremendous as many of you already know. Things will change my friend. Things will change. And btw Karma is a *****.

;) Fun question. If I wanted to die with joy, remember how young, fresh I was, I would watch Adelina. If I wanted to die thinking what an old angry woman I am, I would watch Yuna. Adelina, Mao, Caro come with positive feeling. Yuna with negative, not her personaly but things around her. If anyone hates anyone in figure skating, then I think it's Yuna who might hate some of her fans for what the did to her image. They act like they own her. Everybody around Yuna is bad. Her rivals are bad, her coach Orser was bad, now her boyfriend is bad. Maybe Yuna would do all she could to get rid of some of her fans. No, I don't want to die with this feeling. I would watch Adelina. No negative karma.


Once again, it proves one thing: don't mess with Karma arguments! Your Karma will come back to you :biggrin:
 

ILuvYuna

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Under 6.0, the numbers were merely placeholders.

Mathman enlightened me already, but thanks :)

Ok guys seriously. Laying on your death bed, would you like to watch Yuna or Adelina perform?

Actually I'm with Nadya (there are a million things I'd rather be doing with my last days on earth than watching either of them lol) but I'll humor you anyway - I'd pick Yuna :) and I'd watch Les Mis :thumbsup: Adelina has not yet delivered a memorable program or performance for me, but I am looking forward to her artistic growth over the next quad.

If the question is narrowed down to which Sochi Olympic free skate I would rather watch, I'd watch Yuna's. My family is hispanic, and I was really close to my dad. He passed a couple days before I turned 16, so the music is pretty special to me - plus, she skated it beautifully - so yeah... (now you're making me think about it! :cry:)
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Yuna's scores leading up to Vancouver..

Trophee Eric Bompard: 210.03 (76.08; 133.95)
Skate America: 187.98 (76.28; 111.70)
Grand Prix Final: 188.86 (65.64; 123.22)
Vancouver: 228.56 (78.50;150.06)

TES
Trophee Eric Bompard: 210.03 (43.80; 67.55)
Skate America: 187.98 (44.00; 51.18)
Grand Prix Final: 188.86 (33.80; 61.70)
Vancouver: 228.56 (44.70; 78.30)

PCS
Trophee Eric Bompard: 210.03 (32.28; 66.40)
Skate America: 187.98 (32.28; 61.52)
Grand Prix Final: 188.86 (31.84; 61.52)
Vancouver: 228.56 (33.80;71.76)


The difference between her SP from Skate America and Vancouver was 2.22 points or 2 percent. She got a tad higher PCS in the SP, 1.52 points or 4 percent.

The biggest difference came in her FS. 16 points, or a 12 percent difference.

However, Yuna had not skated a clean free program leading up to Vancouver. If some of you recall, she actually got beat by Rachael Flatt in the FS at Skate America after falling on her 3F, getting 3 downgrades (which what < was at the time and popping her 3Z into 2Z<. At Trophee Eric Bompard, she basically missed her 3F costing her 5.50 points. At the GPF she only did a 3Z-2T, UR on her 2A-3T with major -GOE

So add 5.5 points to her Trophee Eric Bompard FS TES (which was clean otherwise) and you got 73.05. That's just getting a 3F at base value. At Vancouver she got 1.80 GOE so add that..74.85.

The PCS difference was much higher at 8 percent or 5.36 points.

But if your recall the FS, the judges were giving out +GOE and +PCS like candy. Pretty much all the skaters who skated clean got a boost in +GOE and +PCS that night leading to a whole ton of personal bests. Joannie Rochette, for example, went from 56.72 at GPF to 68.48 in Vancouver. Laura Lepisto got 62.72 in Vancouver compared to 59.20 a few weeks earlier at Europeans.

So I don't think Yuna's score improve is that hard to explain.


That was some pure ownage. Sotbots will have to try a new straw grasp unfortunately (which will as always be pure entertainment to witness).
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Thanks for the breakdown, Mrs. P. I agree with your overall point, but I just want to add a few things:

Yuna got two level 3 spins and a level 3 spiral sequence at 2009 TEB FS, and got all level 4 spins/spirals at 2010 Olympics FS. So that, in addition to the added 3F and the GOE for the flip and spin levels (which increase with higher levels), increased Yuna's TES.

There was a PCS increase for the clean skaters in Vancouver, but I don't see the +GOE boost in Vancouver--for any skater. The way the judges did +GOE that season remained relatively consistent throughout the season, regardless of skater.

Yuna's 3Lz/3T received the exact same GOE in both Vancouver and TEB FS. Of her other 5 jumping passes, 4 of them received a mere +0.20 higher in Vancouver than in TEB, which is essentially the difference of ONE judge giving her an additional +1 to what the judge gave in TEB--it's a statistically meaningless difference. The only other significant difference was her 3S got +0.6 more at the Olympics than at TEB. Her 3S has an unexpected entry and a creative exit, and I suspect the TEB judges weren't able to accurately gauge how difficult that made the jump since it was her season debut and it was the first time they had seen that.

The Rochette and Lepisto examples aren't good examples because Rochette was terrible at the GPF and Lepisto was also better at the Olympics than at Europeans. However, PCS did increase overall at the Olympics versus the other competitions, but no single skater was the only beneficiary.

Agreed. Adelina's Olympic inflation in Sochi was far greater than Yuna's in Vancouver. The PCS in particular was troubling as a number of judges basically scored Adelina as if she was now an All-Time great and to be honest, she's really just a young talented work in progress. BTW, nobody in their right mind is disputing that Adelina isn't talented. What they are saying is that she received a lot of help from judges and officials (more than even from her coaches) to bridge the gap between "talented young skater tovirtually the best ever (basically tied with Yuna in Vancouver in 2010) Olympic champion.

I almost feel it was like she gamed the system, like cheaters do in Las Vegas (card counting, electronic devices to manipulate slot machines, etc.). In this case (at least to my knowledge) Adelina was not involved in the cheating, but based upon overall technique, questionable interpretation, flawed technical elements in her program (that were ignored or overstated by the tech panel), overly generous GOE's and a large number of head scratching Program Component Scores, I would be banning these cheaters (the corrupt officials) from the Casino.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
But then the Ten Commandments prohibit theft.

did you know that for the mao bots it's worth it that evil yuna didn't win gold.. it doesn't matter that adelina not getting called on her flutz while mao got an edge call on her lutz... it doesn't matter that adelina had 7 points lead in the lp over mao who had an 8 triple program.. it doesn't matter because yuna is evil and her people is equal to satan.. it doesn't matter to them as long as yuna didn't win gold.. and they will celebrate no matter what.. even if the judges clearly throw mao under the bus in the lp.. :sarcasm:

true. just not on ice at sochi olympics.

This thread keeps going and going and going..... like the energizer bunny.

you can actually ignore the thread you know.. that's your freedom.. :biggrin:
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
for what it's worth.. she didn't make a single mistake.. not even a two footed landing..

and after she got those record scores.. the ISU changes the rules in the next season..

Yes, she skated better, but 40 points is a lot. The change in the rules is not relevant because she had the same advantage at earlier competitions that season. This is why the Olympics is not a substitute for Worlds as some say it should be. The scoring is so out of whack and, this year at least, so political. That said, Yu Na would have won in 2010 even without inflation.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Again anyone who actually watched Yu Na's awful (for her standards) skating at the 2009 grand prix final where she almost lost to a subpar Ando realizes Yu Na was indeed easily 40 points (or more) over 2 programs better than that at the Olympics. Anyone who keeps bringing that up either: a) did not watch the 2009 grand prix final, b) does not know anything about skating. The grand prix final was also in Japan so Yu Na and others were purposely undermarked to try and help Ando win the event, which she nearly did despite a mediocre SP with only a 3-2 and a mistake on a spin (which shows the kind of SP Yu NA skated vs her sublime Olympic one), and a poor LP with no artistry, no speed, and only 3 clean triples (again showing how poor Yu Na was there, illogical and illegitimate Japanese based scoring that is third only to Russia and Canadian hosted events aside). Yu Na receiving the same PCS as Miki freaking Ando who also didnt skate technically well here shows the scoring itself could also never be taken seriously or compared to anything else, aside from the vast gulf in skating Yu Na demonstrated there to the Olympics anyhow.

By contrast Sotnikova was not even close to 20 points better in the Olympic LP than the Trophee de France one. I would say only 5-6 points better in fact. Yu Na whose improvement of her GP final LP to the Olympic one was literally 10 times more than Sotnikova's from these two instances merely improved her LP score by 25 points, not even much more, which is ridiculous. So this weak case only makes it more obvious what a gross and uncalled for inflation Sotnikova got which cant be compared to anyone else (or certainly not any of Yu Na Kim).
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Yes, she skated better, but 40 points is a lot. The change in the rules is not relevant because she had the same advantage at earlier competitions that season. This is why the Olympics is not a substitute for Worlds as some say it should be. The scoring is so out of whack and, this year at least, so political. That said, Yu Na would have won in 2010 even without inflation.

Where are you getting 40 points? The difference between Yuna's score at TEB (her season's best up to that point) and the Olympics was 18.53, not 40 points.

I guess, yes 40 points from her GPF score, but Yuna was pretty terrible there.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Where are you getting 40 points? The difference between Yuna's score at TEB (her season's best up to that point) and the Olympics was 18.53, not 40 points.

I guess, yes 40 points from her GPF score, but Yuna was pretty terrible there.

Exactly. We have some straw grasping of the worst kind going on now. Pretty soon the others in this thread will need to split their fingers into 5 in order to try and grasp those teeny tiny straws you need a microscope for.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Where are you getting 40 points? The difference between Yuna's score at TEB (her season's best up to that point) and the Olympics was 18.53, not 40 points.

I guess, yes 40 points from her GPF score, but Yuna was pretty terrible there.

If you look at my original post, I said she was 40 points over the GPF and 18 over TEB. Sorry if you missed it (but probably not, since I started this discussion). And, as your post admits, you know where the 40 points came from.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
If you look at my original post, I said she was 40 points over the GPF and 18 over TEB. Sorry if you missed it (but probably not, since I started this discussion). And, as your post admits, you know where the 40 points came from.

I didn't see the original post -- just the one I quoted. I've been in-and-out of this thread, so I apologize if I haven't read every post. And I edited my post--when I realized that perhaps you are referring to GPF.

Still, I think you can logically figure out Yuna's scores in Vancouver. 18 points from TEB is not that illogical, when you consider that nearly 8 of those points came from a successful execution of a triple flip and several more points came from getting level 4s on her elements.

The PCS difference was minimal in the SP and greater in the FS. I guess out of that 18 points, you can make a case for saying that 5-6 points were inflated, but again, when you consider an overall PCS boost in the Olympics, the inflation was ultimately minimal.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Plus everyones scores were a bit inflated at the Games. Joannie Rochette over 200 points for that set of performances, including 2 major mistakes in the LP and no triple-triple of any kind in either program, and weak spins? Wouldnt happen anywhere else.

Yet another horrible thing about Sotnikova's ridiculous scores and win is she not only received well beyond the usual expected Olympic inflation, but others did not receive any at all. Yu Na Kim received much lower GOE than she is always used to for clean performances, even her jumps which are easily worth the +3s she gets in GOE were barely getting +1s suddenly. Her LP given usual Olympic inflation you would expect to easily clear her near 150 score at Worlds last year, yet instead scored almost 5 points lower. Mao Asada given Olympic inflation you would expect 150 minimum for her LP too, yet wasnt even close. Yet Sotnikova receives all the usual Olympics + alot more. A true crock.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
I didn't see the original post -- just the one I quoted. I've been in-and-out of this thread, so I apologize if I haven't read every post. And I edited my post--when I realized that perhaps you are referring to GPF.

Still, I think you can logically figure out Yuna's scores in Vancouver. 18 points from TEB is not that illogical, when you consider that nearly 8 of those points came from a successful execution of a triple flip and several more points came from getting level 4s on her elements.

The PCS difference was minimal in the SP and greater in the FS. I guess out of that 18 points, you can make a case for saying that 5-6 points were inflated, but again, when you consider an overall PCS boost in the Olympics, the inflation was ultimately minimal.

Agree, but there does seem to be Olympic inflation--for some.
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Plus everyones scores were a bit inflated at the Games. Joannie Rochette over 200 points for that set of performances, including 2 major mistakes in the LP and no triple-triple of any kind in either program, and weak spins? Wouldnt happen anywhere else.

Yet another horrible thing about Sotnikova's ridiculous scores and win is she not only received well beyond the usual expected Olympic inflation, but others did not receive any at all. Yu Na Kim received much lower GOE than she is always used to for clean performances, even her jumps which are easily worth the +3s she gets in GOE were barely getting +1s suddenly. Her LP given usual Olympic inflation you would expect to easily clear her near 150 score at Worlds last year, yet instead scored almost 5 points lower. Mao Asada given Olympic inflation you would expect 150 minimum for her LP too, yet wasnt even close. Yet Sotnikova receives all the usual Olympics + alot more. A true crock.

Not a Mao fan,
Not a Yuna fan
Not a Carolina
Not an Adelina fan.

Mao won should have won the FS and finished 4th overall.
Yuna should have finished second in the FS and 1st overall.
Carolina should have finished third in the FS and 2nd overall.
Adelina should have finished fourth in the FS and 3rd overall.

Mao had too far to come from behind, but her program was technically better than Adelina's and her Components were greatly suppressed for that reason (yes, I know what i said, lol). Edit: not to mention GOE deflation on jumps in particular.

Yuna's PCS was suppressed and Technical Panel bias and GOE deflation sunk her to 2nd.

Carolina's GOE's were deflated on a number of elements and despite some 10.0's, many of her Component elements were suppressed.

Adelina had some nice jumps and spins, but most of them were not world class. Her combination spin sequenced traveled all the way to Moscow on the "sit", yet still got some GOE 3s. Most of her jumps had no carry and should have been GOE 2's at best. As analyzed by BOP, her StSq somehow got level 4. She was receiving some interpretation marks higher than some Carolina and Yuna got. Throw in the flutz, the UR and generous GOE on the step out of the 3-2-2 (several judges gave it a -1, when a -2 should have been the score) and the avalanche of high GOE's and PCS, you have to believe that something nefarious was going on here.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Not a Mao fan,
Not a Yuna fan
Not a Carolina
Not an Adelina fan.

Mao won should have won the FS and finished 4th overall.
Yuna should have finished second in the FS and 1st overall.
Carolina should have finished third in the FS and 2nd overall.
Adelina should have finished fourth in the FS and 3rd overall.

Mao had too far to come from behind, but her program was technically better than Adelina's and her Components were greatly suppressed for that reason (yes, I know what i said, lol).

Yuna's PCS was suppressed and Technical Panel bias and GOE deflation sunk her to 2nd.

Carolina's GOE's were deflated on a number of elements and despite some 10.0's, many of her Component elements were suppressed.

Adelina had some nice jumps and spins, but most of them were not world class. Her combination spin sequenced traveled all the way to Moscow on the "sit", yet still got some GOE 3s. Most of her jumps had no carry and should have been GOE 2's at best. As analyzed by BOP, her StSq somehow got level 4. She was receiving some interpretation marks higher than some Carolina and Yuna got. Throw in the flutz, the UR and generous GOE on the step out of the 3-2-2 (several judges gave it a -1, when a -2 should have been the score) and the avalanche of high GOE's and PCS, you have to believe that something nefarious was going on here.

Nefarious is a serious allegation that needs proof! There is no proof of anything. It's now March 20th! Some People have been searching for proof for a month now and there is nothing. This effort to strip sotnikova of her gold needs proof and evidense that anyone did anything wrong or made any mistakes. With step sequences or jump rotation or real proof and evidence that sotnikovas pcs and goe were wrong according to the rules.
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Nefarious is a serious allegation that needs proof! There is no proof of anything. It's now March 20th! Some People have been searching for proof for a month now and there is nothing. This effort to strip sotnikova of her gold needs proof and evidense that anyone did anything wrong or made any mistakes. With step sequences or jump rotation or real proof and evidence that sotnikovas pcs and goe were wrong according to the rules.

Please note! I used the word BELIEVE! I did not SAY that something happened. I am not required to defend what I believed happened, thank you! I gave you my observations and why I believe them. It is up to others to decide what they think based upon their own observations.

Unlike you, I am unbiased. My skater came in 7th and had no chance at the podium. My problem is more with the process than the outcome. That should be what any skating fan is worried about.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Yu Na Kim received much lower GOE than she is always used to for clean performances, even her jumps which are easily worth the +3s she gets in GOE were barely getting +1s suddenly.

Yuna compares favorably to the competition usually because (a) she is not competing against any top level competition or (b) the top competitors implode in either the SP or the LP. Here, three skaters delivered strong SP and LPs. You yourself said Caro should have won so you know that if Caro hits her jumps well she deserves high GOE. Adelina gets it from difficult entrances and height. Yuna does little into her jumps; they have great quality but with the judging system that is not enough because you also have to have the difficult entrance/exit to get the extra GOE.
 
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