The Judging Controversy Thread

ILuvYuna · Mar 23, 2014

Meoima said:
What about all the other judges who scored Adelina higher GOE than Kim? Were their scores all fixed? Because... all of them scored her so high. I don't know anymore. where should we start?

I don't have my notes in front of me, but I remember that 4 of them scored Adelina lower in pcs. GoE's for that other group were some higher than Kim, and some lower, but not crazily so like you see in the cheating block. What you have to take into account is not the impact that the cheating block had in just scoring one high, or just scoring one low, but the cumulative effect of scoring each accordingly. That's what resulted in the +5 gulf between Yuna and Adelina. It's a cumulative effect (a landslide).

capcomeback said:
The landslide of GOE 3s she received from four judges (make up 29 out of 33 3's she received), is downright suspicious.

:thumbsup: It's about judging in favor of one skater to the exclusion of another. I ran across an article pointing to FIVE judges from the panel that they felt were suspicious. FOUR of the judges were from the former soviet block, and the other one was from france (didn't someone say she was Alla's friend and judged Sot a whole bunch this season along with Alla?)

Anyway, as far as I've looked, 4 corrupt judges + 1 iffy judge is reflected in the protocols as well. For me, that's probable cause, but good luck getting the ISU to declassify the judges' identity on the protocols lol. It'll never happen :rolleye:

skatedreamer · Mar 23, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
...Having a favorite is one thing but trying to tear down undeniable talent to prop another speaks of desperation and unbalanced thought.

This is also a pretty good explanation of biased judgment in action.

ILuvYuna · Mar 23, 2014

skatedreamer said:
Sam-Skwantch said:

...Having a favorite is one thing but trying to tear down undeniable talent to prop another speaks of desperation and unbalanced thought.

Click to expand...

This is also a pretty good explanation of biased judgment in action.

I agree

I♥Yuna;891598 said:
:thumbsup: It's about judging in favor of one skater to the exclusion of another.

Meoima · Mar 23, 2014

I♥Yuna;891598 said:
I don't have my notes in front of me, but I remember that 4 of them scored Adelina lower in pcs. GoE's for that other group were some higher than Kim, and some lower, but not crazily so like you see in the cheating block. What you have to take into account is not the impact that the cheating block had in just scoring one high, or just scoring one low, but the cumulative effect of scoring each accordingly. That's what resulted in the +5 gulf between Yuna and Adelina. It's a cumulative effect (a landslide).

:thumbsup: It's about judging in favor of one skater to the exclusion of another. I ran across an article pointing to FIVE judges from the panel that they felt were suspicious. FOUR of the judges were from the former soviet block, and the other one was from france (didn't someone say she was Alla's friend and judged Sot a whole bunch this season along with Alla?)

Anyway, as far as I've looked, 4 corrupt judges + 1 iffy judge is reflected in the protocols as well. For me, that's probable cause, but good luck getting the ISU to declassify the judges' identity on the protocols lol. It'll never happen

Well, the skating world is a quite small pond so I doubt that all these judges never know each other before. They might actually have parties together many times so judge being friends could prove not much. I think the tech panel's wrong call might affect the judge's scores, though. And are you sure 4 of the judges are from the former soviet block? Their names are Russian?

ILuvYuna · Mar 23, 2014

Meoima said:
I think the tech panel's wrong call might affect the judge's scores, though.

What do the rules say? Supposing that they could see it was flutzed and underrotated, are they supposed to disregard bad technique and quality as if it never happened, just because the technical panel didn't flag or impose a penalty? I really think that's rather wrong. They are supposed to judge the quality of execution. Those jumps were not executed to +3, regardless of whether the caller wanted to impose a penalty or not.

And are you sure 4 of the judges are from the former soviet block? Their names are Russian?

Before this, I didn't know who all was on the judging panel - I knew the sp and fs panels were different, and I knew of Alla, Lakernik, and the wife of the russian federation president, cuz that's what they were talking about on tv and radio immediatley following the event. I also read recently somewhere on the forum (maybe this exact thread? I can't remember) that Alla had been judging together with the french judge in some of Sot's events this year, so that together with my observations from the score sheets is what piqued my curiosity to find out which countries were represents on the fs panel. I googled "Judging Sochi Russia France" and this article was at the top: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-olympics-adelina-sotnikova-yuna-kim/5680717/

The nine-person panel for the Olympic women's long program included judges from four former Soviet bloc nations -- Russia, Ukraine, Estonia and Slovakia -- as well as France, which conspired with Russia for the Salt Lake City pairs judging scandal in 2002.

Maybe it's wrong -- is there any official list of the countries that were represented on the fs panel??

***ETA - considering the alleged vote-trading in the team & ice dance competition, it'd be nice to see a list of the sp panel as well.

gmyers · Mar 23, 2014

Lol all of France was in on it!!!

Meoima · Mar 23, 2014

I am not sure about USA today. But well, here is the panel judge for free skate:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/SEG004OF.HTM

And for short program: http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/SEG003OF.HTM

Del · Mar 23, 2014

It doesn't even matter. Lakernik had the power to do it alone.

Antilopa · Mar 23, 2014

“Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” (c) Cinquanta

gmyers · Mar 23, 2014

Del said:
It doesn't even matter. Lakernik had the power to do it alone.

No one has the power to do anything alone

pangtongfan · Mar 23, 2014

Antilopa said:
“Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” (c) Cinquanta

Well he instead chose to place an idiot, and probably the worst judge in figure skating history, who is ALSO the relative of the manager of a federation. Congrats for an idiot explanation by an idiot explaining why you put an idiot on the panel Mr. Fraudquanta.

Del · Mar 23, 2014

Antilopa said:
“Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” (c) Cinquanta

Why should the choice be limited that? In fact, it wasn't. A little foresight is all it took to prevent the situation.

Mathman · Mar 23, 2014

The full ladies' judging panel, as chosen by lot at the Obersdorf competition in October, was:

South Korea, Italy, Japan, United States, Canada, Russia, France, Sweden, Ukraine, Estonia, Slovakia, Germany, and Great Britain.

For the short program, after a second drawing, the following were seated:

South Korea, Italy, Japan, United States, Canada, Sweden, Slovakia, Germany, and Great Britain.

Sitting out were: Ukraine (Balkov), Russia (Shekhovtseva), Estonia, and France.

For the long program the four who did not judge the short program were seated, replacing (again by lot), South Korea, Sweden, United States, and Great Britain.

In summary, Korea, U.S, Sweden, and Great Britain judged the short program only. Ukraine, Russia, Estonia, and France judged the long program only. The rest, Italy, Japan, Canada, Slovakia, and Germany, judged both.

ILuvYuna · Mar 23, 2014

Antilopa said:
“Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” (c) Cinquanta

This is an informal fallacy ppl. It's tantamount to saying all other judges in the pool were idiots, and therefore picking a person with conflict of interest was preferable.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 23, 2014

Should the judges be chosen at the Olympics within a few hours of the event to prevent influence in the months prior? I'm sure all would love to attend and would readily be available even if they dont judge. Could this not lower the chance of influence by limiting the time for any lobbying to even happen.

Its hard to buy off or influence a judge if you don't know who it is or have time to reach them.

skatedreamer · Mar 23, 2014

Aside from this forum, I've read elsewhere that Lakernik had enormous power to influence the result but can't remember where. If anyone can provide links to credible sources, I'd appreciate it.

gkelly · Mar 23, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
Should the judges be chosen at the Olympics within a few hours of the event to prevent influence in the months prior? I'm sure all would love to attend and would readily be available even if they dont judge.

How many should be on hand to be chosen from?
All ISU judges? One from each federation? A pool larger than 13 to be chosen in advance?
Who pays for their travel expenses and room and board at the venue?

Could this not lower the chance of influence by limiting the time for any lobbying to even happen.

Yes, but the practical details, particularly the cost, have to be taken into consideration as well.

skatedreamer said:
Aside from this forum, I've read elsewhere that Lakernik had enormous power to influence the result but can't remember where. If anyone can provide links to credible sources, I'd appreciate it.

It's possible that he could have more influence than a typical technical controller by virtue of personality and his position as head of the technical committee, if technical specialists are intimidated by him and afraid to disagree. I never met him or talked about him with anyone who did, so I have no idea if that's the kind of effect he has on others he works with.

Otherwise, the controller alone can't override a TS and ATS who agree on what they saw and stand by their own observations.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 23, 2014

The ISU and IOC made enough money on ticket sales alone to ensure the integrity of the event via judge selections and associated costs. I find it hard to believe the money for such an event does't exist. I would think even discounted flights and rooming would be enough to entice a good judge to go. It's the Olympics after all and not only an honor to participate but also an honor just to attend. If a judge disagrees with this than maybe their line of thinking might night align with what I would consider to be reasonable. Maybe that's a bit extreme but character is a good issue when selecting judges.

capcomeback · Mar 23, 2014

Antilopa said:
“Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” (c) Cinquanta

The ISU list of officials is about 30 pages long (the date of the document is 10/08/2013). Must be a lot of idiots. :biggrin:

Incidentally, Adriana Domanska is listed in that document as an ISU referee from the Slovak Republic (but not as an ISU judge). I'm not saying that she isn't qualified, but wouldn't it make sense to use an official in the position they are listed as for an event as important as the Olympics? She served as a judge on both the SP and the FS.

Here is a link to the document:

http://static.isu.org/media/107397/1812-list-officials-fs-id-sys-2013-2014-updated-oct-8.pdf

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 23, 2014

Mathman said:
For the short program, after a second drawing, the following were seated:

South Korea, Italy, Japan, United States, Canada, Sweden, Slovakia, Germany, and Great Britain.

This panel had Adelina within a point of Yuna for a technically weaker SP. I don't see how anyone can say this panel is skewed towards Adelina.

What is more interesting is that there were TWO judges who scored Yuna's PCS low in the SP. (http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf) Likely one of the four that did not judge the LP scored her PCS low (among South Korea, Sweden, United States, and Great Britain). It's also likely the one who scored Yuna equally low in the SP remained, among Italy, Japan, Canada, Slovakia, and Germany. Which means there's a good chance Yuna's LP outlier came from Italy, Japan, Canada, Slovakia, or Germany and not Russia or Ukraine, unless two of South Korea, Sweden, United States, and Great Britain scored her low.

MM I think you are going to help people uncover the truth with this information

The Judging Controversy Thread

ILuvYuna

skatedreamer

ILuvYuna

Meoima

Match Penalty

ILuvYuna

gmyers

Meoima

Match Penalty

Del

Antilopa

gmyers

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

Del

Mathman

ILuvYuna

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

skatedreamer

gkelly

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

capcomeback

drivingmissdaisy

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