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Thread: The art, the flow, the grace is gone

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadya View Post
    I agree Kwan is not at all stocky. What I had in mind was more of a comparison of someone like Harding to someone like Kim.
    Kwan is toned and slender, but her limbs are definitely not as long as someone like Yuna's. I tend to agree that longer limbs create more pleasing lines, but I look at things from a dance perspective and some people focus more on athleticism than on "dancerly" qualities like line, stretch, pointed toes, etc.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwanIsALegand View Post
    I am sorry but Adelina over Yuna just proves that what most of us cherish and love about figure skating is over. Done. It is all about racking up points. You do not have to be particular graceful, artistic or have great edges. You just have to do ridiculous spins and jumps and boom, you won the gold.
    And that is different from how skating was judged in the past how? Sarah Hughes won gold in 2002 despite having hunched shoulders, poor lines, lacking carriage and not fully extending or finishing off any of her movements.

  3. #63
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    The problem with this TES v. PCS split is the application is wildly inconsistent. Skaters with excellent technical ability receives low PCS so they spend lots of time to improve that side of mark then they go to the most important competition of their lives and realize that PCS doesn't really matter (or it doesn't matter in a way they thought it would) - that's essentially duping the athletes. The other way around as well. The system must be honest.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    And that is different from how skating was judged in the past how? Sarah Hughes won gold in 2002 despite having hunched shoulders, poor lines, lacking carriage and not fully extending or finishing off any of her movements.
    The difference between 2002 and 2014 is that Sarah Hughes was the only skater in the final group that skated a clean program. Sure, it wasn't as aesthetically pleasing as Michelle's program (by a long shot), but Sarah didn't falter on a single jump. Also, her artistry (as mundane as it was) was probably as good or better than Slutskaya's. So, really, she deserved the gold medal THAT NIGHT. No one really thinks Sarah Hughes is some legendary, lovely skater. But on that night she was probably better than her competition.

    In Sochi, Adelina was the only skater of the top three ladies that actually screwed up on one of her jumps AND her artistry was objectively inferior to Carolina and Yuna's artistic components. Across the board on every single program component, she should have been at least one point behind Carolina and Yuna. So while it's great that Adelina cobbled together two mostly clean programs (which is something she pretty much never did up to that point), she did not deserve to win the gold medal that night in Sochi. Her programs were ugly, ugly, ugly (well, her LP sure was) and her skating lacked finesse, elegance and flow.

    Two very different stories...

  5. #65
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    What was really stinking that Sotnikova with this programme (jumps from flat palms and wrong edges. underrotated 2 foots jump etc.) got 9s and many high 9s accros the bord.
    It first time looked like an "agreement" with most of the judges involved PRIOR the competition.
    That is the only reason why so many fans mentioned the name of Putin.
    The same facts was also annoying concerning to the points of Virtue/Moir compare to Davis/White. They arteficially has been kept lower in each elements (getting +1,+2) and THAT made Ilinykh/ Katsalapov points much too close to theirs, because they deserved these +1,+2s (unless Virtue/Moir, who could get +3+4 compair to them...)

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    And that is different from how skating was judged in the past how? Sarah Hughes won gold in 2002 despite having hunched shoulders, poor lines, lacking carriage and not fully extending or finishing off any of her movements.
    Recent Olympic champions, rated on art, grace, and flow.

    Sotnikova -- so-so
    Kim -- yes
    Arakawa -- yes
    Hughes -- no
    Lipinski -- no
    Baiul -- yes
    Yamaguchi -- as amateur, so-so

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Recent Olympic champions, rated on art, grace, and flow.

    Sotnikova -- so-so
    Kim -- yes
    Arakawa -- yes
    Hughes -- no
    Lipinski -- no
    Baiul -- yes
    Yamaguchi -- as amateur, so-so
    Mathman, would you please explain your reasoning re: Sotnikova? I agree that Hughes and Lipinski were certainly inferior in terms of art/grace/flow, but wouldn't rate them below Sotnikova in that regard. IMO Sotnikova's performance looked frenetic and clunky. It was far less visually pleasing, which is one of the things artistry is meant to achieve.

    For me, there was also a quality about it that actually seemed angry and made the program almost painful to watch. This is a purely subjective opinion, of course, but this thread is about artistry and artistry is subjective by nature.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Recent Olympic champions, rated on art, grace, and flow.

    Sotnikova -- so-so
    Kim -- yes
    Arakawa -- yes
    Hughes -- no
    Lipinski -- no
    Baiul -- yes
    Yamaguchi -- as amateur, so-so
    I don't agree with you on Hughes. I thought Hughes, especially was very matured for her age. She had one of the best Camel, layback and spiral. Her sit spins were very good too. Sarah always had beautiful positions and extensions.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatedreamer View Post

    For me, there was also a quality about it that actually seemed angry and made the program almost painful to watch. This is a purely subjective opinion, of course, but this thread is about artistry and artistry is subjective by nature.
    This is the biggest problem with figure skating, half of it is the artistry & how great it is depends entirely on the eye of the beholder.

  10. #70
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    I could easily be talked into an upgrade on Hughes and Lipinski.

    For Sotnikova, to me her performance was fine in the "art, flow and grace" department. What can I say? I thought her performance was satisfactorily artsy, flow-y and graceful. It held my interest. She had the misfortune of skating against three competitors who have outstanding talent in this regard, Asada, Kim and Kostner, who can make anyone look ordinary by comparison.

    It is not clear how much "artistry" counts in the Olympics. Kim is not more artistic than Asada, but Kim won handily in 2010. Arakawa is graceful, but so was Sasha Cohen. It didn't help Sasha. (Well, maybe it did, for silver.) Hughes is not more artistic than Kwan, but Michelle fell and missed her combo. Oksana Baiul out-gracefulled Nancy Kerrigan; Kerrigan should have won anyway, but she didn't.

    It is hard to draw any conclusions.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I could easily be talked into an upgrade on Hughes and Lipinski.

    For Sotnikova, to me her performance was fine in the "art, flow and grace" department. What can I say? I thought her performance was satisfactorily artsy, flow-y and graceful. It held my interest. She had the misfortune of skating against three competitors who have outstanding talent in this regard, Asada, Kim and Kostner, who can make anyone look ordinary by comparison.

    It is not clear how much "artistry" counts in the Olympics. Kim is not more artistic than Asada, but Kim won handily in 2010. Arakawa is graceful, but so was Sasha Cohen. It didn't help Sasha. (Well, maybe it did, for silver.) Hughes is not more artistic than Kwan, but Michelle fell and missed her combo. Oksana Baiul out-gracefulled Nancy Kerrigan; Kerrigan should have won anyway, but she didn't.

    It is hard to draw any conclusions.
    Thanks for your thoughts. Not sure that Oksana "out-gracefulled" Nancy (love that word, BTW!), but on that night she was definitely more dynamic and she charmed the audience in a way that Nancy just couldn't.

    Re: Sotnikova, 'nuff said -- happy to agree to disagree!

  12. #72
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    When somebody's favorite skater retires, they retaliate by trashing the rest of the skating field. This is not a healthy way to cope. Find somebody else to root for.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I could easily be talked into an upgrade on Hughes and Lipinski.

    For Sotnikova, to me her performance was fine in the "art, flow and grace" department. What can I say? I thought her performance was satisfactorily artsy, flow-y and graceful. It held my interest. She had the misfortune of skating against three competitors who have outstanding talent in this regard, Asada, Kim and Kostner, who can make anyone look ordinary by comparison.

    It is not clear how much "artistry" counts in the Olympics. Kim is not more artistic than Asada, but Kim won handily in 2010. Arakawa is graceful, but so was Sasha Cohen. It didn't help Sasha. (Well, maybe it did, for silver.) Hughes is not more artistic than Kwan, but Michelle fell and missed her combo. Oksana Baiul out-gracefulled Nancy Kerrigan; Kerrigan should have won anyway, but she didn't.

    It is hard to draw any conclusions.

    Oksana was not more graceful than Nancy. I think Nancy was much more graceful, however Oksana was charismatic. Nancy should have won easily IMO.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by poleptina View Post
    Kwan is toned and slender, but her limbs are definitely not as long as someone like Yuna's. I tend to agree that longer limbs create more pleasing lines, but I look at things from a dance perspective and some people focus more on athleticism than on "dancerly" qualities like line, stretch, pointed toes, etc.
    Michelle had beautiful lines--right down to her fingertips.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    Michelle had beautiful lines--right down to her fingertips.
    This is so true! Michelle had great hand positions.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mor...kwan_ap_01.jpg

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MyLRFdYlFi...fs-0405809.jpg

    http://www.soundarts.biz/Michelle_Kwan_still_photo.jpg
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-16-2014 at 03:09 PM.

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