The art, the flow, the grace is gone | Page 5 | Golden Skate

The art, the flow, the grace is gone

winky97

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
If Yuna had went in the last group and skated her short program, her lead would have been a lot larger which may have been enough to win again.

I agree that Yuna skating so early in the SP program led to her receiving lower scores. I also believe that Adelina received a higher score that she should have in the SP with her junior level jump combination.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
I agree that Yuna skating so early in the SP program led to her receiving lower scores. I also believe that Adelina received a higher score that she should have in the SP with her junior level jump combination.
Stop insulting juniors. Our current junior champion can do 3Lz-3T and Adelina herself was doing a fully rotated 3Lz-3Lo in her junior days.
 

moviechick

On the Ice
Joined
May 7, 2008
Adelina has other 3-3s too, so it's just a little baffling that she opted for the easiest in the SP.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Adelina has other 3-3s too, so it's just a little baffling that she opted for the easiest in the SP.

ehh... what i learned from sochi is that you can still go for an easy 3-3 and managed to score as high with virtually a tie with 2 skaters who did a harder 3-3..
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Adelina has other 3-3s too, so it's just a little baffling that she opted for the easiest in the SP.
It's not baffling at all.

3Lz-3Lo is a hugely difficult combination and often gets unfairly downgraded. That's also why she chickened out on it in the Sochi LP. She didn't personally pay the bribes or make the backroom deals herself, so she didn't know if she'd get 3Lz-3Lo ratified.
Her 3Lz-3T is always flutzed and underrotated.
She does not start 3-3 combinations with 3F for obvious historical reasons.
I have not heard of her ever doing 3Lo-3 or 3S-3 combinations.

So she did 3T-3T, because it is relatively easy to do a big, impressive-looking 3T-3T combination for great GOE, and GOE for all the triples T through Lz is the same.
 

winky97

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
her marks were gifts but sort of evens out sarah hughes beating Irina slutskya, one of the greatest ever

Sarah Hughes used to be number 1 on my list of worst OGM ever, until Adelina unseeded her this year. I remember when Sarah won and as I recall, Irina made errors that justified Sarah being awarded the OGM over her. Adelina "winning" was just ridiculous.
 

donezo

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Oh, I still think Sarah Hughes is the worst ever. At least Adelina can fully rotate those triples! Adelina has the talent to be truly extraordinary, and she probably has more good years in her than Sarah Hughes did. Still, it's hard to argue against Sarah's win considering the circumstances and the scoring system. Irina skated poorly and Michelle fell, which was an unforgivable sin under 6.0. There was real pressure to give the win to the cleanest skate thanks to the pairs fiasco. Adelina's gold is suspect at best.
 

moviechick

On the Ice
Joined
May 7, 2008
Adelina easily had a better performance than Hughes but in the context of the competitions, it's way sketchier that Adelina won over clean Yuna and Carolina than Hughes who beat sloppy performances.
 

winky97

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Stop insulting juniors. Our current junior champion can do 3Lz-3T and Adelina herself was doing a fully rotated 3Lz-3Lo in her junior days.

Adelina's jump combination of the 3T 3T in the SP is one of the easiest combination jumps out there and you generally see that jump combination in the junior level. The fact that some junior level skaters can do more complicated jump combinations does not change the fact that Adelina's SP combination jump was a junior level. If you want to consider it an insult for juniors I can't do anything about that.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Adelina's jump combination of the 3T 3T in the SP is one of the easiest combination jumps out there and you generally see that jump combination in the junior level. The fact that some junior level skaters can do more complicated jump combinations does not change the fact that Adelina's SP combination jump was a junior level. If you want to consider it an insult for juniors I can't do anything about that.

The 3T-3T may be the easiest 3-3, but it is still a difficult combination. It is scored higher in base point than any 3-2 combination other than a 3Axel-2 combo (I think). It is not "junior level" any more than the quad-toe is junior level for the men.
 

ILuvYuna

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
I completely understand why Adelina picked the 3T 3T and I don't blame her. She didn't feel comfortable taking the risk, and that decision paid off.

What does bother me alot is the base value of the 3Lz - less than a point more than a flip? but more than two points less than the 3A? I think it should be placed more evenly between the 3F and 3A - maybe 6.8 bv, and an downgrade for underrotation of 1.5, to put it on par with a 3F.

That would do 3 things. 1) Reward the skaters who can actually pull it off. ex: would put a distance between Adelina's and Yuna/Caro's TES sp scores that more properly reflects what was executed on the ice. 2) Since the most difficult part is the take-off, even an underrotated 3Lz will still be worth as much as a 3F, so this encourages the skaters to attempt a true Lutz, even if they don't consistently get it all the way around. 3)It would force them to reconsider the stupid edge-call violation on flutzes and lips.

In my mind, it makes absolutely no sense to punish a skater so severley for an underrotated *true lutz* compared to the slap on the wrist they get in GoE on a triple jump that completely omitted the thing that supposedly justifies the lutz's higher base value in relation to the flip - not to mention the very thing that defines the jump as a lutz in the first place (BOE).

If anything, the edge-call violation should apply exclusively to lips, so that doing something harder than you intended (lip) only gets a minor deduction, while doing something easier than you intended (flutz) gets you a major deduction. To me that would be a million times more fair and more accurate way to judge the true merit of a skater's difficulty and execution.

As for possible Zayak conflicts on lutzes that are called as flips - too bad, right? ETA***On second thought, maybe edge calls should have a symbol next to the bv, sort of like the downgrade symbol (maybe ^for a lip, and *for a flutz), and the bv adjusted accordingly, that way the skaters could attempt whatever they had normally planned without worrying about the Zayak rule (it is kinda harsh, and makes no sense if the 3Lz bv is already raised, so I retract that old argument lol).

From a dance perspective?

Dancer here :biggrin: Michelle's hands were okay, but Jenni Meno's were amazingly beautiful :yes: Great port de bras, too.

http://www.leigh-i-am.com/03LPSOI/03lpsoi1202022.jpg
http://m4.i.pbase.com/u42/debscarbro/upload/27227554.AH2342240R103415A.jpg
http://www.worldskatingmuseum.org/images/meno_and_sand.jpg
http://www4.images.coolspotters.com/photos/133512/todd-sand-profile.jpg
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
I♥Yuna;888140 said:
I completely understand why Adelina picked the 3T 3T and I don't blame her. She didn't feel comfortable taking the risk, and that decision paid off.

What does bother me alot is the base value of the 3Lz - less than a point more than a flip? but more than two points less than the 3A? I think it should be placed more evenly between the 3F and 3A - maybe 6.8 bv, and an downgrade for underrotation of 1.5, to put it on par with a 3F.
You're underestimating the difficulty of the 3A by doing this. I would go the other way; I think that the 3A is barely rewarded enough as it is, the Lutz about right, but the BV of 3T as a solo or initial jump should be lowered. Maybe drop the BV of a 3T to 3.7 and give a 0.4 bonus to 3T done as the 2nd or 3rd jump in a combination with the preceding jump being a triple (maybe even allow the bonus if the preceding jump is a 2A?). This would provide skaters more of an incentive to attempt triple-triples harder than 3T-3T. Similar changes for the 3Lo: make a solo or initial 3Lo worth 5.0 and give a 3Lo preceded by a double or triple a 0.6 bonus (I think this is reasonable because even the skaters who can attempt 3-3Lo combinations don't bother because their solo loops score higher anyway - just look at the men). Bring back the 'e' and '!' calls, giving 'e' flutzes and lips the severe deductions while '!' is less harsh. Make the negative GOE scaling harsher, especially on quads. Flutzers should be free to flutz but they should get a bit harsher of a deduction.
 

poleptina

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
I♥Yuna;888140 said:

Nice. :agree:

Speaking of line, port de bras, and dancers who skate, remember Katherine Healy?

Casta Diva
:)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I♥Yuna;888140 said:
Dancer here :biggrin: Michelle's hands were okay, but Jenni Meno's were amazingly beautiful :yes: Great port de bras, too.

http://www.leigh-i-am.com/03LPSOI/03lpsoi1202022.jpg

:clap: :clap:

Maybe someone should start another skating dress/fashion thread...

Wang is unique in that she's the only high fashion designer out there who actually has a skating background. Her simple, uncluttered looks always appeal to me but understatement isn't everyone's cup of tea! I didn't know that she was still designing costumes -- hadn't heard much about her recently, although haven't exactly been focused on that, either.

Vera Wang was elected to the U.S. figure skating hall of fame in 2009. At the time she said, "the only thing I liked better than skating was clothes." :)

https://www.usfigureskating.org/content/wang.jpg
 

surimi

Onward and forward, Sota!
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
I am sorry but Adelina over Yuna just proves that what most of us cherish and love about figure skating is over. Done. It is all about racking up points. You do not have to be particular graceful, artistic or have great edges. You just have to do ridiculous spins and jumps and boom, you won the gold.

The group I watched skating with tonight COULD NOT BELIEVE Adelina won. They were laughing at how ridiculous it was. She has zero polish, zero grace and absolutely no flow over the ice. It is as if she just went out and did her chores for the day, very workmanlike and rough.
For that to beat Yuna or Carolina is disgusting and sad.
This is a very bleak road that this beautiful sport is taking. :mad:

As far as I am concerned, Adelina interpreted her music in an eye-pleasing, cheerful, lively way, and I found her movements fitting the theme. She skated with an energy and speed I don't recall from Kostner and Kim, for all their flowing. I really liked her take on the theme, and had no issue with her winning. I guess I don't belong to the "most of us" you mention. :)
 

usethis2

Medalist
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
To be honest, I thought Carolina telegraphed all of her jumps. Yes after re-watching the skates again, I think Yuna should have won. I still think Mao should have won FP though. Over all Yuna should have won because of her PCS. Yes, Adelina was awesome last night but her PCS isnt' on par with Yuna or Carolina. The only person(PCS) on par with Yuna and Carolina is Mao Asada.

That would match my scoring. As much as I admire Carolina, I fail to see her elements being better than Yuna's. Yuna's jumps, spins, and footwork were all better than Carolina's. Carolina is a lovely skater but she has a trouble jumping to music. She tried mighty hard in the past with inconsistent results, and Lori Nichole did a great job this year and last year by disassociating music and Carolina's jumps so that Carolina can hit her jump timings. Then she sells her program with footwork. It is a great strategy that worked for her, but her elements are not the same quality of Yuna's, IMO. (they never have, TBH)

Mao should have won the FS with her most difficult program if the judging panel were consistent, IMO.
 

skatedreamer

Medalist
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Country
United-States
After checking out Mathman's link to the USFSA site & Vera Wang's hall of fame induction, I went off on a tear through cyberspace for more material about Wang and her costume designs. The blog entry linked below doesn't say anything you haven't seen before, but scroll down to the photo gallery, which contains a lovely pic of Yuna in her SP dress. What caught my eye was the position of her hands. Sharing the link b/c of several comments above re: hands/dance/posture.

http://blog.sfgate.com/chronstyle/2...cs-skating-outfits-best-and-worst/#20597101=3

I believe the Yuna pic is the 4th in the series.
 

winky97

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
The 3T-3T may be the easiest 3-3, but it is still a difficult combination. It is scored higher in base point than any 3-2 combination other than a 3Axel-2 combo (I think). It is not "junior level" any more than the quad-toe is junior level for the men.

We will agree to disagree on this. I stand by my position and I have many skater friends who agree with me. So I guess it is yet another debatable thing about figure skating. The point is with that jump combination Adelina should not have been almost even with Yuna Kim after SP.
 

usethis2

Medalist
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
We will agree to disagree on this. I stand by my position and I have many skater friends who agree with me. So I guess it is yet another debatable thing about figure skating. The point is with that jump combination Adelina should not have been almost even with Yuna Kim after SP.

Not a surprise to see her saying that. Previously she insisted that while she thought Yuna was perfect yet she was "not bold enough" compared to Adelina. (whatever that means, she never explained) Now she says 3T-3T is a difficult combination. Hah. I am sure she wishes to say 3T-3T were as difficult as 3Lz-3T but that would be removing all doubts. :biggrin: So she stops short of that. But the implication is no less clear.
 
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