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Thread: Cohen's Swan Lake #2

  1. #91
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    IMO -

    There is no point in creating a rivalry between Sasha and Michelle. The new rivalry is Shizuka v. the World!

    Joe

  2. #92
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    Soogar, Then at Skate Canada that year she (MK) fell on her falling leaf and some other horrible mistakes.
    MK had a toe fracture and she didn't even know, she fell on a butterfly because the toe was just too painful. That was the only "horrible mistake" in SC 1997. She had to arrange her exhibtion program after that, you can't fault her for making "horrible mistakes" just because she took out some jumps in her exhibition program? Her leg was put in a cast immediately after that event.

    MK did not always suck big time early in GP series, she received a 6.0 in SA 1999. IIRC, SA 1995, she won convincingly, with at least 6 triples, 1996 SA, she won convincingly too, 1997 SA was brilliant, 1998 did not compete, 1999 SA, received a 6.0, 2000, and 2001 won with reasonable performance, 2002 won fair and square. I can not think of too many skaters out consistent and out performed MK early in GP seasons. If people want to give Sarah the gold and place her over MK in SA 2000, and 2001, I won't challenge. It was a toss up for me.

    Early in the season most athletes are out of practice. If you think MK did so poorly and inconsistently early in the season, then who were better and more consistent in those early GP competitions?

    Off the top of my head I think reigning world champ Arakawa was very consistent at SA 2001 lp, landed 7 triples with 3sa/3 loop to boot lp. In that same competition, MK and Sarah both landed 6 triples, Vilka who placed 3rd did not land too many triple jumps, and Sasha .....
    Last edited by gezando; 04-03-2004 at 01:12 AM.

  3. #93
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    Originally posted by gezando
    Off the top of my head I think reigning world champ Arakawa was very consistent at SA 2001 lp, landed 7 triples with 3sa/3 loop to boot lp.
    Well, I wouldn't say Arakawa landed 7 triples. Her loop on her 3sal/3loop combo was severely cheated (by 3/4 of a turn), so it was more of a 3sal/2loop. 6 triples :D

  4. #94
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    I've been reading alot that Shizuka should have won Skate Canada this year over Sasha. Why didnt' she then?

  5. #95
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    Originally posted by Fossi
    I've been reading alot that Shizuka should have won Skate Canada this year over Sasha. Why didnt' she then?
    Because Sasha's Component marks have been extremely inflated. She should not be getting 9s in Skating Skills (more than Arakawa was getting). Still though, I think when it came to Choreo, Transitions, Performance/Execution, and Interpretation, Sasha was superior. Shizuka won the tech mark and Sasha won the components as she should have, except for Skating Skills. Shizuka probably would have won if 6.0 was used, but in CoP, Cohen won. Personally, I don't seea problem with the result.

    You should also consider that SP and LP point totals are added and that Arakawa didn't perform to her ability in the SP.

    TV
    Last edited by thvudragon; 04-03-2004 at 11:22 AM.

  6. #96
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    Gezando: Yes, most of the skaters don't skate as well early in the season, MK is no exception. Which is why it's not fair to compare Sasha, who is skating 4 events in Grand Priz (including the final) , to MK's two competitions at Nats and Worlds.

    Also in that Skate Canada event, Frank Carroll didn't even want her to skate that event because he didn't even show up. MK made the choice to show up to accept appearance fees (not that I blame her) and if her toe was hurting her so bad, she shouldn't have skated.

  7. #97
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    Shizuka should probably have been placed ahead of Sasha at the GPF FS. Sasha fell twice in that event and completed only 4 clean triples, but she received three Skating Components 9.0s from one of the judges, and 8.50s/8.75s from another judge. Shizuka wasn't perfect either, but she completed 5 clean triples and didn't fall. Sasha edged Shizuka by 2.45 points because of the inflated SC marks.

    Sasha's SC marks for that FS were the equivalent of 5.9 - 6.0 for a performance with two falls!

  8. #98
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    I forgot all about Frank didn't show up at SC 97 to support Michelle. Now I remember team Kwan did not want to go back on their words and promise to be at SC. I forgot about these side lines details LOL, but I definitely remember MK's performance it was brilliant until she fell on the butterfly. She still won fair and square. She did not fall on a FL, and make many horrible mistakes.

    Since Michelle won all the Skate America comps that she entered, IMO relative to her performances at nationals or worlds, she might not be as sharp (exception of SA 95, SA 97, SA 99), but she was still ahead of the rest of the field.

  9. #99
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    Maybe Tarasova was pacifying the judges with free bottles of vodka?

    (Note to Robin, bring cases of Sonoma wine to next competition!)

  10. #100
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    PS I really liked Sasha's Swan Lake LP circa Robin Wagner.

  11. #101
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    Originally posted by soogar
    ...Sasha at least makes an effort to attempt to do her best, maybe to the point of burning out by the time the important events roll around, whereas MK makes very little effort in Grand Prix events and gradually builds up- or taper as they do in swimming- to getting her best performances in when they are seen and really count - Nats and Worlds...
    I didn't mean to imply anything about how Michelle has skated her GP events in the past. I just meant to say that Sasha seemed to be compared by the commentators and the media to a perfect Michelle, which, IMO, seemed to blow the consistency issue way out of proportion.

    Anyway, you mentioned something that I think is very important. You referred to Michelle gradually building up to get her best performances when they really count. There's actually a technical term for this, *training periodization,* which just means putting your training and competitions on a time table so that you increase and decrease the intensity of your training to suit your competitions.

    Nobody can train and compete at full bore all season and then go out on tour. Well, you can, but you'll either get injured or burn out. I think this has been part of Sasha's problem, especially over the last two seasons. She does well in the GP series and GPF, but doesn't skate up to her potential at Nats and Worlds. I think this year especially she was trying to prove herself during the GP series and TAT was also increasing the difficulty of her programs prior to every GP event in an effort to up the point totals. The most difficult "Swan Lake" Sasha did was at Trophee Lalique and although it was a gorgeous program, it struck me as the kind of program you would want to have by Worlds, not by November.

    So that's something I hope Robin Wagner works on with Sasha, putting less energy into her GP events and focusing more on Nats and Worlds. Irina had a similar problem. She virtually owned the GP series and GPF for years, but never skated as well at Worlds, at least not until '02.

    Michelle was probably wise to hold back during the GP series. I remember her getting some mild criticism, but as a multiple National and World champion, she didn't have anything to *prove* on the GP circuit and used it, IMO, as it should be used by an experienced champion skater--as competitions to try out your programs in front of international judges and to get the feel for your programs in competition.

    I'd actually like to see Sasha hold back some in the GP series this fall, as well as the ISU events, and as I said, rechannel her training so she can peak at Nats, rest a bit, and peak again at Worlds. On another thread, somebody said, "What has Sasha accomplished so far?" Although of all sr. ladies, she's won the highest number of all events offered over the last two years, what *counts* is Nats and Worlds. Somehow she needs to rework her physical and mental training to reflect that fact.
    Rgirl

  12. #102
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    Thumbs up from Sasha's journal...

    The long program at the Marshall’s Challenge was my best of the season. It was a great finish and a great moment for Robin and me. As the program progressed, and I kept nailing all the elements, it felt strong. With each element you do, the more the excitement builds, and you know everything is going really well.


    We went in with a different approach and just pushed through the entire program.


    The standing ovation was really sweet, and I didn’t want to get off the ice. I just wanted to stay there for 20 minutes and soak it in. It’s such a great feeling.


    There were so many strong ladies in the competition.


    I think I over-planned with so many competitions this season. I won’t be doing that again.
    Two things: I wonder what the "different approach" was? Also, sounds like she's thinking what you're thinking, Rgirl

    It'll be intriguing to see those two new programs for next year, as well as how the collaboration develops.

    Sarah

  13. #103
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    I thought the disscussion of Sasha and Michelle who is doing GP who is not doing GP has been going on forever. It's not like Michelle had never done full season of GP then went on win big one as Nats and Worlds; she had been there done that until 2001 or 2002 at age of 20/21. She just said herself that when she gets old it is hard to keep the same level at top all times physically and emotionally. Compare to Michelle, this is Sasha's 2nd or 3rd full season of GPs. The 2nd GP seasons in which she win most of events. She is only 19. If she is physical and mentally capable, I happened to think it is good for Sasha to use GP events to gain winning experiences.

    As for her TL's most difficult SW choreograph, IMO, maybe Sasha just dosn't have the sounde basics (edge control) to pull these difficult choregraphy progrm cleanly. If a skater dosn't have the sounded basic skills or jump skills when under pressure, the skills just as easily abandent them. Words are Mike Wiss can land quad in practice cleanly, but in competetion he always two footed it. Michelle has been double out her 2nd triple lutz in most of her competetion program (while no problem in exhibitions and COI show) and falled on 3loop in QR. But reports were she's been very consistant with these two jumps in practice, that is after RA changed the entry of these two jumps for her, but when under pressure the new skill seems abandent her, she made mistakes.

    I think Robin made right decision to strip out the heavy choreography just so SC can skate clean first. And at the same times have Sasha work on basics, when she is ready then give her some difficult chore. IIRC, at somepoint in GP one commentator said too much flexibility sometimes may work against Sasha in some erea, she might mean in jump like holding entry/landing edge. But today when I review my Worlds's tape, at Sasha's LP it strikes me that in some of Sasha's back cross overs the ankles (foot?) of her push leg lookes wiered, almost like her blades 'swive' on ice, too much flexibility? I don't know just a thought.

  14. #104
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    Originally posted by mzheng

    As for her TL's most difficult SW choreograph, IMO, maybe Sasha just dosn't have the sounde basics (edge control) to pull these difficult choregraphy progrm cleanly. If a skater dosn't have the sounded basic skills or jump skills when under pressure, the skills just as easily abandent them. Words are Mike Wiss can land quad in practice cleanly, but in competetion he always two footed it. Michelle has been double out her 2nd triple lutz in most of her competetion program (while no problem in exhibitions and COI show) and falled on 3loop in QR. But reports were she's been very consistant with these two jumps in practice, that is after RA changed the entry of these two jumps for her, but when under pressure the new skill seems abandent her, she made mistakes.

    I think Robin made right decision to strip out the heavy choreography just so SC can skate clean first. And at the same times have Sasha work on basics, when she is ready then give her some difficult chore. IIRC, at somepoint in GP one commentator said too much flexibility sometimes may work against Sasha in some erea, she might mean in jump like holding entry/landing edge. But today when I review my Worlds's tape, at Sasha's LP it strikes me that in some of Sasha's back cross overs the ankles (foot?) of her push leg lookes wiered, almost like her blades 'swive' on ice, too much flexibility? I don't know just a thought.
    I think Tarosava was doing too much too fast with Sasha. I remember that first interview Sasha had after she went to TT about how she wanted to do things one step at a time but TT said she needed to do it 3 steps at a time. They had her doing a difficult program that she may have not been ready for. With Rach TT ended up taking out a lot of the difficulty(remember the 3toe/.5 loop/3sal sequence) and by Worlds cut out some of the choreography to add another jumping pass. This is a girl who has a problem just landing jumps and giving her harder entrances(originally an ina bauer into a 3 lutz in Rach) isn't going to help her consistancy. Unlike Robin ,Tarosava hadn't seen Sasha grow up on the ice. Since she didn't coach a ladies singles skater I don't know how much she watched them other than the big events.

    Robin OTOH saw Sasha a lot as the USFSA seemed to send Sarah and Sasha to a lot of the same events. I also think Robin first met Sasha when she was 12 or 13 in Sun Valley. As Sarah's main peer competitior she probably knew her strengths and weaknesses. Robin decided to do the one step at a time approach. Start with basics and work your way up. I think Rgirl posted some old article in the NNN thread about how Sasha was always playing catch up on the ice. Because she started skating at a later age she skipped some of the time spent of basics in order to catch up with her peers in jumps. Some of the things she learned in gymnastics carried over to skating. Sasha was also able to get away with a lot because she was so talented. She didn't have to skate clean when she was young to place well.
    It was OK when she was young to makes mistakes but now she's got to skate clean and she never really learned how to. I think Robin is teaching her how to skate clean first then move on to the more difficult stuff. They could have put in the 3/3 as Sasha probably can do it but Robin decided no. Robin took out the 3 loop in the QR to make it easier for her to skate clean. Like you said she took out the heavy choreography so Sasha could just focus on the jump itself and not all the other stuff. Once she gets used to that and has the confidence that she can skate clean then they'll put in more difficult choreography.

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