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Thread: How Sotnikova beat Kim - Move by Move

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambivalent View Post
    Said this before but I'll say it again: we cannot deny Mao had a fantastic LP and for it to score 7 points below Sotnikova was all sorts of WRONG WRONG WRONG.


    also I wish Yuna changed her lay back spin it looks... bad the leg position (always), back position, and arm position were all dull. I was surprised at Ashley Wagner's lay back. Really nice almost like Sasha's, but of course Sasha Cohen is the best at lay back spins imo.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JYSkate View Post


    also I wish Yuna changed her lay back spin it looks... bad the leg position (always), back position, and arm position were all dull. I was surprised at Ashley Wagner's lay back. Really nice almost like Sasha's, but of course Sasha Cohen is the best at lay back spins imo.
    And don't forget Shizuka Arakawa, along with Sasha.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambivalent View Post
    Said this before but I'll say it again: we cannot deny Mao had a fantastic LP and for it to score 7 points below Sotnikova was all sorts of WRONG WRONG WRONG.
    Mao is the one who should've come close to Yuna's 2013 Worlds LP score, not Sot.

  4. #34
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    And now you experts compare the spins of Sotnikova and Kim.

  5. #35
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    Me too, Yuna's long program in Vancouver was epic and Sotnikova just outscore thar with her junior performance

  6. #36
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    I think this article is descriptive rather than analytical in nature. A title of "This is What the Protocols Said The Skaters Did" is probably more accurate.

    Those who are familiar with skating, of course, are not disputing what the protocols said. They are saying that the protocols do not reflect what happened on the ice, and that there are prima facie grounds for suspicion as to the integrity of those numbers, both in the context of the skaters' bodies of work, as well as in the composition of the judging/technical teams. The former provides grounds for skepticism about the accuracy of the scores, and the latter a reason to question transparency and motive.

    I do agree with the idea that the case for scrutinizing the scoring is much stronger because the seeming irregularities are not isolated; they apply to a larger group of skaters, and suggest a systematic and intentional differentiation between Russian and non-Russian skaters. While people tend to focus on Adelina vs. Yuna because it involves the gold medal, we should remember that this is a much wider and deeper issue, especially if our aim is to disagree with the results with the best hope of having some practical effect on the system's shortcomings.

    The other suggestion that I would like to make is that this is also an issue that is larger than "them thievin' Russians". Power and wrongdoing (which tend to go together) both abhor a vacuum, and will always move to fill it when given the opportunity. The current case sparks the outrage that it does, in my view, because the perpetrators did not even have the decency or sense of shame to even make an attempt at plausibility. Nevertheless, the bedrock issue is that the ISU has created a lawless atmosphere (Cinquanta: don't you think that a competent relative of a Fed leader is better than a complete idiot? A statement worthy of Vito Corleone) that breeds contempt for competitive integrity.

    My suggestion to those who (like me) are unhappy with the present state of affairs: think like a RICO prosecutor .*

    The article, it seems to me, is written for those who are unfamiliar with the scoring of figure skating. The issue, of course, is that in presenting a breakdown of scoring the way that they did, the author can appear to be giving his (and the New York Times') blessing for the result. Which may, or may not, be true.

    While I understand the purpose of the article, it seems to me that, given the controversy that the paper itself has reported on in other articles, this is roughly analogous to the following: Some eggs are missing from the henhouse. The fox is questioned as to what happened. His answer: no eggs are missing, and here's why. The farmer takes the answer at face value, and goes away satisfied to report the explanation to the chickens.

    *("RICO" refers to the "Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act" which is routinely used in the US to prosecute criminal organizations, including mobsters and Wall Street fraud)

  7. #37
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    Is this 'expert' Adam Leib guy the same skating coach who was reported in NYT for sexual harassment? http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/02/sp...-the-line.html

  8. #38
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    The technical difference between the 2 programs as planned was less than 3 points. Less than 3 points. The actual difference came from Adelina being generously called and Yuna the opposite and Adelina receiving unwarranted, per the guidelines, GOE. So the technical difference is just as shady as the blatantly inflated PCS. Why is it about Yuna vs. Adelina? The egregious inflation in PCS, GOE and very generous calling of Adelina's elements also affected other superior skaters. USA has already watched the sport die there, they are being strong armed to defend a decision they know is wrong trying to save the sport so 9 out of 10 of their opinions are about just that: cover up. These news outlets mostly rely on figure skating "experts" in their statements who have clearly been told "say it is legit", even some initially stating there was something wrong are now towing the party line. Johnny tells a Korean broadcast that Yuna is the true champion but the opposite on US television. He clearly wants to keep making money in Korea. NBC Olympics site has a side by side video of their LPS that is even more depressing, like skaters of completely different levels, imagine the SPs side by side. Bottom line, it's as easy as this: if Adelina skated exactly the same but for ant other country, would she be Olympic champion? If you said yes to that, we'd love to see you back on Earth sometime.

  9. #39
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    Article from Japan Times.

    Scandalous outcome: Skating judges steal Kim’s title, hand it to Sotnikova

    SOCHI, RUSSIA – Yuna Kim got robbed on Thursday night. Plain and simple.

    What happened to her at the Sochi Games was a complete and utter disgrace. Another black eye for figure skating.

    The elegant and magnetic South Korean superstar gave a wonderful performance in very difficult circumstances, not making a single mistake, yet came away with only a silver medal in what can only be deemed a scandalous result.

    Russian gold medalist Adelina Sotnikova was impressive in her free skate, but was she five points better than Kim?

    No way. How over the top was Sotnikova’s score in the free skate? Sixteen points better than her previous personal best.
    Give me a break. What should have been a glorious moment for Russian skating was taking on a decidedly different tone the morning after, with some very disturbing information emerging.

    I spoke with several journalists in the Main Press Center on Friday morning and it was nearly unanimous — they almost all thought that Kim had beaten home favorite Sotnikova.

    Before I even made it back to my hotel after the competition, the debate was already beginning to rage.

    With the arrival of Kim and Mao Asada many years ago, skating in Asia has been enjoying a boom. But the sad reality is that in many other places it has been languishing. The results in women’s singles here will only make promoting it harder. Every time something like this occurs it does exponential damage.

    Millions of people around the world are watching and presuming it is all legitimate. Skating is a great sport — one that teaches important values to youngsters about dedication, hard work and sportsmanship — and to see it besmirched again is very disturbing.

    What are the young skaters and fans who watched the free skate supposed to think?

    What bothers me most is that here was this great champion, an incredible symbol for skating, giving it her all one more time. Kim is a millionaire many times over and certainly didn’t need to compete. She is set for life.

    But she knew she was still young enough to give it another go and wanted her fans to have another chance to see her on the greatest stage. She put her legacy on the line in a bid to become only the third woman ever to retain the Olympic title (after Norway’s Sonja Henie and Germany’s Katarina Witt). It was a gutsy move.

    Brennan, the author of the highly acclaimed skating book “Inside Edge,” didn’t mince any words in her analysis of the free skate, telling it exactly like it was.
    “What happened tonight in the women’s figure skating competition was worse than the 2002 Salt Lake City pairs judging scandal because, this time, we’ll never find out who might have done what because all the judges’ scores are now anonymous,” she wrote.
    Brennan also quoted Joseph Inman, an American international skating judge as saying, “I was surprised with the result.”
    Kim nailed both of her programs and should have retained her title. That is the bottom line.

    Three-time U.S. champion Michael Weiss sensed something amiss with this Twitter comment on Thursday. “Yuna — two clean skates as defending Olympic champ wins gold, right?”

    That’s the way it is supposed to be. Legendary American skater Dick Button, a two-time Olympic champion (1948, 1952), has been an analyst now for decades. The messages he tweeted said it all. “At one point, I had doubts regarding Yuna Kim — not after today. She was superb, elegant, charming. Never a wilt.” His feelings about the gold medalist were different. “Sotnikova was energetic, strong, commendable, but not a complete skater.”

    What folks need to understand is that Sotnikova didn’t just emerge from oblivion. She has been around for a few years. She is a four-time Russian champion and the 2011 world junior champion. But in her three seasons skating on the senior circuit, she has never even won a Grand Prix event, much less medaled at a major international competition. She has qualified just once for the world championships as a senior, finishing ninth in 2013.

    Did she suddenly become great overnight? Good enough to beat Kim in the Olympics? Your common sense will tell you no. Once you arrive there, the rest is not difficult to deduce.

    Kim showed her true class with her comments after the free skate. She could have stirred up controversy, but was magnanimous in defeat. “The score is given by the judges,” she said. “I’m not in the right position to comment on it. And my words can change nothing.”

    The reality is the trap for Kim was set on Wednesday night with the unfairly high score that Sotnikova received in the short program.
    Kim was fabulous skating to “Send in the Clowns” and should have had a lead of at least four points heading into the free skate.

    Instead, both Lipnitskaia and Sotnikova received inflated marks and the former was less than half a point behind Kim in second place. It was as if once it became apparent that Lipnitskaia wasn’t going to be a contender for the gold, the impetus swung to push Sotnikova. There is nothing that damages sports more than predictability, the preordained result. That’s what you saw on Thursday night.

    Kim could not have gotten out of the Iceberg Skating Palace with the gold medal if she had left with it in an armored car.
    I almost felt as if I were watching a play where Kim was going to be brought out and sacrificed as the final act.
    That would have gone along with the story line, but Kim would have none of it. She displayed the heart and courage of a true champion in an amazing effort.

    What happened next was a damn shame.


    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2.../#.UwiwcWJ_tjM

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_ice View Post
    Here, enjoy - http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ting.html?_r=1
    Very good article and photos comparison.
    TES is not what really is in question though. Well aside of no GOE taken off by most judges for Sotnikova's flutz and extremely high GOE for her step sequence which didn't have the speed and flow of many other skaters.

    It's Sotnikova's PCS that were ridiculously high for what she has shown.

  11. #41
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    I hate how the camera work shot the step sequence of all the skaters from the side so that it hid the ice coverage of the skaters. Of course, hardcore fans have seen the step sequence done in other competitions so I know that Adelina's itty-bitty, awkward step sequence only covers half as much ice as Mao's.

    The choice in camera work was just another little way the Skating Feds tried to cover up their cheating.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I hate how the camera work shot the step sequence of all the skaters from the side so that it hid the ice coverage of the skaters. Of course, hardcore fans have seen the step sequence done in other competitions so I know that Adelina's awkward step sequence covers half as much as Mao's.

    The choice in camera work was another little way the Skating Feds tried to cover up their cheating.
    It angers me Adelina outscored Mao. Ugh. And beat Mao in PCS too. Mao deserved better.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuki90 View Post
    Article from Japan Times.

    Scandalous outcome: Skating judges steal Kim’s title, hand it to Sotnikova

    SOCHI, RUSSIA – Yuna Kim got robbed on Thursday night. Plain and simple.

    What happened to her at the Sochi Games was a complete and utter disgrace. Another black eye for figure skating.

    The elegant and magnetic South Korean superstar gave a wonderful performance in very difficult circumstances, not making a single mistake, yet came away with only a silver medal in what can only be deemed a scandalous result.

    Russian gold medalist Adelina Sotnikova was impressive in her free skate, but was she five points better than Kim?

    No way. How over the top was Sotnikova’s score in the free skate? Sixteen points better than her previous personal best.
    Give me a break. What should have been a glorious moment for Russian skating was taking on a decidedly different tone the morning after, with some very disturbing information emerging.

    I spoke with several journalists in the Main Press Center on Friday morning and it was nearly unanimous — they almost all thought that Kim had beaten home favorite Sotnikova.

    Before I even made it back to my hotel after the competition, the debate was already beginning to rage.

    With the arrival of Kim and Mao Asada many years ago, skating in Asia has been enjoying a boom. But the sad reality is that in many other places it has been languishing. The results in women’s singles here will only make promoting it harder. Every time something like this occurs it does exponential damage.

    Millions of people around the world are watching and presuming it is all legitimate. Skating is a great sport — one that teaches important values to youngsters about dedication, hard work and sportsmanship — and to see it besmirched again is very disturbing.

    What are the young skaters and fans who watched the free skate supposed to think?

    What bothers me most is that here was this great champion, an incredible symbol for skating, giving it her all one more time. Kim is a millionaire many times over and certainly didn’t need to compete. She is set for life.

    But she knew she was still young enough to give it another go and wanted her fans to have another chance to see her on the greatest stage. She put her legacy on the line in a bid to become only the third woman ever to retain the Olympic title (after Norway’s Sonja Henie and Germany’s Katarina Witt). It was a gutsy move.

    Brennan, the author of the highly acclaimed skating book “Inside Edge,” didn’t mince any words in her analysis of the free skate, telling it exactly like it was.
    “....Kim could not have gotten out of the Iceberg Skating Palace with the gold medal if she had left with it in an armored car.
    I almost felt as if I were watching a play where Kim was going to be brought out and sacrificed as the final act.
    That would have gone along with the story line, but Kim would have none of it. She displayed the heart and courage of a true champion in an amazing effort.

    What happened next was a damn shame.


    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2.../#.UwiwcWJ_tjM
    This pretty much sums up how I felt that evening, though I imagined something more like a crucifixion awaiting Yuna.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    TES is not what really is in question though. Well aside of no GOE taken off by most judges for Sotnikova's flutz and extremely high GOE for her step sequence which didn't have the speed and flow of many other skaters.

    It's Sotnikova's PCS that were ridiculously high for what she has shown.
    OK, but Sotnikova was almost 6 pts higher. You think her PCS should be 6 pts lower (like Gracie Gold)?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyguy View Post
    OK, but Sotnikova was almost 6 pts higher. You think her PCS should be 6 pts lower (like Gracie Gold)?
    YuNa
    3Lz+3T 10.10
    3F 5.30
    2A 3.63 x

    3Lz+3T 10.10
    3F 5.30
    3S+2T 5.50
    3Lz 6.60 
    2A+2T+2Lo 7.04 
    3S 4.62 x
    2A 3.63 x 
    Total 61.84

    Sotnikova
    3T+3T 8.20 
    3F 5.30
    2A 3.63 x

    3Lz+3T 10.10 (Wrong edge. should get -GOE -1~-2 but Judges gave +GOE.)
    3F 5.30
    3Lo 5.10 
    2A+3T 8.14 x
    3F+2T+2Lo 9.24 x 
    3S 4.62 x 
    2A 3.63 x
    Total 63.26 

    the difference is only 1.42 point.
    Their PCS is almost same in both SP and FP.
    YuNa's step sequence got level 3 in SP and FP and Adelina got level 4 and 1.7 GOE.
    This is fixed from the beginnig.YuNa was robbed of gold medal.

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