Have the values of figure skating been betrayed? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Have the values of figure skating been betrayed?

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
The controversy will not be going away, Krislite. This is not an Ice Dance scenario where both teams are perfect and it just comes down to personal preference, nor a 6.0 system with Lipinski vs. Kwan where it also came down to personal preference ... this is a situation where we have code of points and Sotnikova's numbers do not add up.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
The controversy will not be going away, Krislite. This is not an Ice Dance scenario where both teams are perfect and it just comes down to personal preference, nor a 6.0 system with Lipinski vs. Kwan where it also came down to personal preference ... this is a situation where we have code of points and Sotnikova's numbers do not add up.

There will always be doubts and suspicion. When I say "subside", I mean only on an emotional level. In any case let's not drag that discussion here. There are dozens of threads on it.
 

Frenchie

I'm gonna customize the CRAP out of this title!
Medalist
Joined
May 4, 2013
For some reason NBC and some main U.S. outlets are trying to reduce the competition to this argument.
They say yes Yuna had better artistry, but then they don't mention Adelina's PCS was essentially the same score, 2nd best of all time.

They don't mention Costner did 7 triples too. Mao 8. Both finished way behind Sotnikova.

They don't mention Yuna's harder technical content in the SP over Adelina. Better artistry...again only 0.28 difference.

It's all ex-post-facto ******** to try and squash a controversy and justify rigged results. I have yet to see any so-called "expert" give a detailed point by point breakdown of why they thought the judging was fair and accurate.

There is a code of points, right?

Holy cow. Adelina Sotnikova got the second highest PCS of all time?!? That just needs a minute of silence and reflection right there.
If I understand your statement correctly, then Yu-Na Kim's was the highest, and it was only 0.09 points better. So... Adelina Sotnikova's PCS was 0.09 points away from being the best PCS ever.
As I've said before, Adelina does not deserve any hatred towards her, since she did not award herself those marks. She never won a World or Olympic Medal, so even the Bronze - which I think she deserved - would have made her really happy.
But this little piece of information just feels like another big rock in my stomach... I'll get back to you when I have digested ;)

P.S.: to the OP: the (mostly not figure skating knowledgeable) media say that Sotnikova did 1 more triple than Kim. They make it sound like where Sotnikova had a 3Lo, Kim had no jump at all. Indeed, the TES advantage of Sotnikova for her 3Lo should have been almost entirely eaten up by the points she lost for stepping out of her 3F2T2Lo combo.
If only counting the number of triples, they could also have mentioned that Carolina Kostner had the same amount, and she did not have any stepout like Adelina did... But I'm afraid that doesn't contribute to the point they're trying to make, so they don't bring it up. Well, that, and the fact that the graceful Carolina got lower PCS than Adelina, and that Mao and Akiko got way lower PCS than Adelina...
This is all so sad...
 

EyesOfLove

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
The controversy will not be going away, Krislite. This is not an Ice Dance scenario where both teams are perfect and it just comes down to personal preference, nor a 6.0 system with Lipinski vs. Kwan where it also came down to personal preference ... this is a situation where we have code of points and Sotnikova's numbers do not add up.

Couldn't agree more. If this were a 6.0 judging, I personally would have no problem with Sotnikova winning. However, this is CoP and the points and levels were handed so inaccurately it almost seems fishy.
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Holy cow. Adelina Sotnikova got the second highest PCS of all time?!? That just needs a minute of silence and reflection right there.
If I understand your statement correctly, then Yu-Na Kim's was the highest, and it was only 0.09 points better. So... Adelina Sotnikova's PCS was 0.09 points away from being the best PCS ever.

Yep that's right Frenchie, Adelina's PCS with a step out and junior choreo ... I mean we're talking about Adelina here ... was 0.09 from the highest PCS of all-time.

And I agree about the not hating on her part ... I wanted her to get bronze before the competition! Would have LOVED that. She's one of my favs. But not like this.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Figure skating has no values. That much was clear long before the Sochi ladies LP, in fact long before the Sochi figure skating event. Just look at the inflation and other issues of the sport since the new code. Whichever federation is willing to pay the most wins. Performances arent even relevant. Fans will just have to award their own medals and ignore the corrupt judges who dont have a clue what they are doing anyway (sorry that is wrong, they know exactly what they are doing but they could just as well judge the events from a hotel room far away from the arena with no TV in the room).
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
To answer the title of this thread -NO

I'd prefer you to give extended answer if you think the values are still here.
I think absolute negativity is very bad in this situation. There should be values and fighting for them :)
 

koatcue

Medalist
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Country
Russia
No. Adelina won fair and square. Her tech was superior. Period. That's still sport. One of the most subjective, but SPORT. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. I don't think Yuna was superior. I f I had to choose, I'd put
1) Caro
2) Adelina
3) Yuna
What do you think?? Or even Mao in 3d. So NO Yuna medal at all!
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
No. Adelina won fair and square. Her tech was superior. Period. That's still sport. One of the most subjective, but SPORT. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. I don't think Yuna was superior. I f I had to choose, I'd put
1) Caro
2) Adelina
3) Yuna
What do you think?? Or even Mao in 3d. So NO Yuna medal at all!

Thanks for extended answer!
However, the result is made by both technical and component score and the later is where values befall. I'll explain to you how it was explained to me: skaters have to interpret the music. Thay have to do every move with music accenting or illustrating it. They are not allowerd to make preparation pauses before elements like Sotnikova did; which besides suggests that her technique wasn't superior. If supperior, the jumps should look like a musical accent - like Yuna's.
 

koatcue

Medalist
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Country
Russia
Thanks for extended answer!
However, the result is made by both technical and component score and the later is where values befall. I'll explain to you how it was explained to me: skaters have to interpret the music. Thay have to do every move with music accenting or illustrating it. They are not allowerd to make preparation pauses before elements like Sotnikova did; which besides suggests that her technique wasn't superior. If supperior, the jumps should look like a musical accent - like Yuna's.
That's what Caro did. She had it ALL in her performance. Adelina had huge easy looking jumps - that's considered too..And her jumps were in the 2nd half of the program - her difficult jumps and combos, I mean. So her GOE was bigger, and rightfully so! Also her spins were much better than Yuna's. So is there a question on TES? Her PCS were high, I agree. But even if she had 69-70, she'd still have won. Yuna has reputation. But her mistake was to go to Olys w/o competing in GP and other big ISU events. She can't be sure to get super high marks not competing. And Mao was better than both, so to say. Caro too!
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
That's what Caro did. She had it ALL in her performance. Adelina had huge easy looking jumps - that's considered too..And her jumps were in the 2nd half of the program - her difficult jumps and combos, I mean. So her GOE was bigger, and rightfully so! Also her spins were much better than Yuna's. So is there a question on TES? Her PCS were high, I agree. But even if she had 69-70, she'd still have won. Yuna has reputation. But her mistake was to go to Olys w/o competing in GP and other big ISU events. She can't be sure to get super high marks not competing. And Mao was better than both, so to say. Caro too!

I can't disagree that Mao and Caro did better programs than both Yuna and Adelina :)
That's right about Adelina's high jumps - this is praised and this is where her long preparation phase delivered; except for that weak landing after one combo. The 2nd half of the progran also matters. I think Adelina's program was buit for giant technical score like Russian programs usually are. However, that's why component score was invented: to make skaters intrepret the music, not just do the elements. This is where I feel that the values of figure skating have been betrayed. Had they been betrayed just emotionally or also technically - I think we have to see the protocol to tell that.
 

Anna K.

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Latvia
Updated: fans are doing their own move-by-move; they compare videos and now they say there was a flutz in Sotnikova's first combo. The scandal is obviously a snowball that doesn't grow less. Myself, I'm glad I got involved and I just hope all these official and unofficial discussions will help to make figure skating of future better than it is today.

It's rather upsetting to think otherwise. I've read a number of articles since yesterday, most of them thanks to the links I found in this forum. Thanks to all of you! However, this one article made me particularly sad:
http://deadspin.com/was-the-figure-skating-fix-in-it-probably-didnt-matte-1527342028
Maybe figure skating really has no values like this writer thinks and it's only tolerated because scandals and weird dresses entertains the public but it doesn't feel fair to me. People do this sport all life and it's a hard work. They deserve something beautiful in the end.
 

millie

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2004
The values of figure skating has been betrayed not only because of the judging but mainly because of the skater that has been bullied, death threats and malaise on that being. Skaters will never feel the same way about skating again. There will always be that doubt that if they win, there will be controversy about judging and the public and fans reaction to their win. Do you think that they are going about their business and not thinking about what happened event.
 
Top