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Thread: Wrong Edge Problem and Kinds of Jumps

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    Wrong Edge Problem and Kinds of Jumps

    Interesting point made in one of the posts:

    These are the kinds of jumps we have in the system so far:
    Axel
    Loop, Salchow
    Toe-Loop, Lutz, Flip

    Lutz and Flip are separate jumps for a reason since the take-off mechanism is supposed to be different because of the angle of your foot. Male skaters usually seem to do fine with lutz jumps - you can see a clear outside edge take-off, but flutzing (using inside-edge for a lutz jump) is so frequent among ladies.

    So basically, they are doing a flip jump. But consider this: if a skater cannot do a lutz jump, they can still list it as a planned element along with flip jumps, and whether or not she uses outside edge, regardless of an edge call is made or not, will still get credit, although may get deducted some points.

    This is basically a loophole in the Zayak rule because a skater can get by by jumping at most four of the same jump and still can get credits.

    IMO wrong-edge lutz should be considered a flip, thus upon failure it should be considered as a flip jump, and if the skater has already jumped two flips, it should not be recognized.

    What do other people think?

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    But there is the issue of counter rotation. If there is couter rotation but then the skater switches to the inside edge at the very last moment before take-off, it's not a correct Lutz, but it's not a Flip either.

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    I've mentioned this before as I think it's a disadvantage to skaters like Yuna who don't do a loop but do correct lutz and flip. A lot of skaters can't do a lutz but get free 7th triple.

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    A 3flutz is still a triple jump that is harder than a 3Lo. There are many skaters who cannot even do a 3Lz or 3F at all or they cannot do it consistently (Carolina Kostner gave up the 3Lz altogether in 2011 due to injury). That's different from having a consistently wrong 3Lz off the wrong edge (or a 3F off the wrong edge).

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    The skater should be judged by what jump she actually does, no matter what the intention. A flutzed lutz would be judged to be a flip, etc.

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    Why do so many women have this problem and very few men? Is it like a muscle/strength issue?

    Also it seems like quite a few guys have a lot of trouble with the axel jump (Chan, Lambiel) despite being very solid on the quad.

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    Custom Title mirai4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    The skater should be judged by what jump she actually does, no matter what the intention. A flutzed lutz would be judged to be a flip, etc.
    Then just get rid of the rules altogether and let them do whatever jumps they want

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    Quote Originally Posted by mirai4life View Post
    Then just get rid of the rules altogether and let them do whatever jumps they want

    Not really. There could be consequences down the line. Suppose a skater had planned a lutz first and then a flip. She goes for the lutz, but flutzes. Then when her schedule flip comes due, she has to think fast on her feet and decide to attempt a lutz or try a flip in combination. If she fails , she could receive no points for one element.
    Of course, if the skater decides only to do just a flip or just a lutz, except for goe of the jump they do they would get a small advantage, but then every skater who did that would get the same advantage.

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    Adiós Melon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechick View Post
    Why do so many women have this problem and very few men? Is it like a muscle/strength issue?

    Also it seems like quite a few guys have a lot of trouble with the axel jump (Chan, Lambiel) despite being very solid on the quad.
    I think men tend to Lip more than flutz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechick View Post
    Why do so many women have this problem and very few men? Is it like a muscle/strength issue?

    Also it seems like quite a few guys have a lot of trouble with the axel jump (Chan, Lambiel) despite being very solid on the quad.
    The counter rotation tends to be a problem for women. Compared to the flip, the mechanics of the takeoff make it harder for them to generate lift.

    Men tend to lip (turn the flip into a lutz) more than flutz since their bodies tend to naturally have more power and spring. Their bodies might perceive that a flip jump was 'too easy' and change the entry to a back outside edge to compensate.

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    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srin Odessa View Post
    The counter rotation tends to be a problem for women. Compared to the flip, the mechanics of the takeoff make it harder for them to generate lift.

    Men tend to lip (turn the flip into a lutz) more than flutz since their bodies tend to naturally have more power and spring. Their bodies might perceive that a flip jump was 'too easy' and change the entry to a back outside edge to compensate.
    I think the reason why men tend to lip is because the back outside edge is more secure during the takeoff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    The skater should be judged by what jump she actually does, no matter what the intention. A flutzed lutz would be judged to be a flip, etc.
    Seconded.

    Someone mentioned Carolina gave up on lutz because she couldn't execute it well? Example of honest skaters being punished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VirMo View Post
    Seconded.

    Someone mentioned Carolina gave up on lutz because she couldn't execute it well? Example of honest skaters being punished.

    No, Carolina took out the Lutz from her programs for a couple of seasons because of an injury (though it's true that she often fell on it). Since then, it's back. And her Lutz always had correct technique, as her Flip. In fact, she's one of the few female skaters with proper technique on both jumps. Doesn't have anything to do with honesty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechick View Post
    Why do so many women have this problem and very few men? Is it like a muscle/strength issue?

    Also it seems like quite a few guys have a lot of trouble with the axel jump (Chan, Lambiel) despite being very solid on the quad.
    Axel is the only forward take-off jump so in many ways it's different from the rest. Among developing women skaters, double Axel is often considered a big landmark in their growth.

    I am curious about Flutz/Lip situation among women as well - my current thesis is that it's harder for women to fix incorrect techniques learned before puberty. And coaches may not teach girls correct technique if they manage to land jumps whatever technique used. (and get paid) When body starts to change, those wrong techniques actually hinder jumps, are hard to shake off, and in turn make skaters more insecure.. (?) It's a theory. Maybe those with experiences can testify.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VirMo View Post
    Seconded.

    Someone mentioned Carolina gave up on lutz because she couldn't execute it well? Example of honest skaters being punished.
    She had a knee injury during the 2010-2011 grand prix series and took out her lutz and flip. She actually ended up winning the 2010 NHK Trophy without a lutz or flip.

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