Wrong Edge Problem and Kinds of Jumps | Golden Skate

Wrong Edge Problem and Kinds of Jumps

VirMo

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Interesting point made in one of the posts:

These are the kinds of jumps we have in the system so far:
Axel
Loop, Salchow
Toe-Loop, Lutz, Flip

Lutz and Flip are separate jumps for a reason since the take-off mechanism is supposed to be different because of the angle of your foot. Male skaters usually seem to do fine with lutz jumps - you can see a clear outside edge take-off, but flutzing (using inside-edge for a lutz jump) is so frequent among ladies.

So basically, they are doing a flip jump. But consider this: if a skater cannot do a lutz jump, they can still list it as a planned element along with flip jumps, and whether or not she uses outside edge, regardless of an edge call is made or not, will still get credit, although may get deducted some points.

This is basically a loophole in the Zayak rule because a skater can get by by jumping at most four of the same jump and still can get credits.

IMO wrong-edge lutz should be considered a flip, thus upon failure it should be considered as a flip jump, and if the skater has already jumped two flips, it should not be recognized.

What do other people think?
 

Kalina

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
But there is the issue of counter rotation. If there is couter rotation but then the skater switches to the inside edge at the very last moment before take-off, it's not a correct Lutz, but it's not a Flip either.
 

jkun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
I've mentioned this before as I think it's a disadvantage to skaters like Yuna who don't do a loop but do correct lutz and flip. A lot of skaters can't do a lutz but get free 7th triple.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
A 3flutz is still a triple jump that is harder than a 3Lo. There are many skaters who cannot even do a 3Lz or 3F at all or they cannot do it consistently (Carolina Kostner gave up the 3Lz altogether in 2011 due to injury). That's different from having a consistently wrong 3Lz off the wrong edge (or a 3F off the wrong edge).
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
The skater should be judged by what jump she actually does, no matter what the intention. A flutzed lutz would be judged to be a flip, etc.
 

moviechick

On the Ice
Joined
May 7, 2008
Why do so many women have this problem and very few men? Is it like a muscle/strength issue?

Also it seems like quite a few guys have a lot of trouble with the axel jump (Chan, Lambiel) despite being very solid on the quad.
 

mirai4life

1Lo <
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
The skater should be judged by what jump she actually does, no matter what the intention. A flutzed lutz would be judged to be a flip, etc.

Then just get rid of the rules altogether and let them do whatever jumps they want :thumbsup:
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Then just get rid of the rules altogether and let them do whatever jumps they want :thumbsup:


Not really. There could be consequences down the line. Suppose a skater had planned a lutz first and then a flip. She goes for the lutz, but flutzes. Then when her schedule flip comes due, she has to think fast on her feet and decide to attempt a lutz or try a flip in combination. If she fails , she could receive no points for one element.
Of course, if the skater decides only to do just a flip or just a lutz, except for goe of the jump they do they would get a small advantage, but then every skater who did that would get the same advantage.
 

MiRé

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Why do so many women have this problem and very few men? Is it like a muscle/strength issue?

Also it seems like quite a few guys have a lot of trouble with the axel jump (Chan, Lambiel) despite being very solid on the quad.

I think men tend to Lip more than flutz.
 

Srin Odessa

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Why do so many women have this problem and very few men? Is it like a muscle/strength issue?

Also it seems like quite a few guys have a lot of trouble with the axel jump (Chan, Lambiel) despite being very solid on the quad.

The counter rotation tends to be a problem for women. Compared to the flip, the mechanics of the takeoff make it harder for them to generate lift.

Men tend to lip (turn the flip into a lutz) more than flutz since their bodies tend to naturally have more power and spring. Their bodies might perceive that a flip jump was 'too easy' and change the entry to a back outside edge to compensate.
 

Macassar88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
The counter rotation tends to be a problem for women. Compared to the flip, the mechanics of the takeoff make it harder for them to generate lift.

Men tend to lip (turn the flip into a lutz) more than flutz since their bodies tend to naturally have more power and spring. Their bodies might perceive that a flip jump was 'too easy' and change the entry to a back outside edge to compensate.

I think the reason why men tend to lip is because the back outside edge is more secure during the takeoff
 

VirMo

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
The skater should be judged by what jump she actually does, no matter what the intention. A flutzed lutz would be judged to be a flip, etc.

Seconded.

Someone mentioned Carolina gave up on lutz because she couldn't execute it well? Example of honest skaters being punished.
 

Kalina

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Seconded.

Someone mentioned Carolina gave up on lutz because she couldn't execute it well? Example of honest skaters being punished.


No, Carolina took out the Lutz from her programs for a couple of seasons because of an injury (though it's true that she often fell on it). Since then, it's back. And her Lutz always had correct technique, as her Flip. In fact, she's one of the few female skaters with proper technique on both jumps. Doesn't have anything to do with honesty.
 

usethis2

Medalist
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Why do so many women have this problem and very few men? Is it like a muscle/strength issue?

Also it seems like quite a few guys have a lot of trouble with the axel jump (Chan, Lambiel) despite being very solid on the quad.

Axel is the only forward take-off jump so in many ways it's different from the rest. Among developing women skaters, double Axel is often considered a big landmark in their growth.

I am curious about Flutz/Lip situation among women as well - my current thesis is that it's harder for women to fix incorrect techniques learned before puberty. And coaches may not teach girls correct technique if they manage to land jumps whatever technique used. (and get paid) When body starts to change, those wrong techniques actually hinder jumps, are hard to shake off, and in turn make skaters more insecure.. (?) It's a theory. Maybe those with experiences can testify.
 

Srin Odessa

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Seconded.

Someone mentioned Carolina gave up on lutz because she couldn't execute it well? Example of honest skaters being punished.

She had a knee injury during the 2010-2011 grand prix series and took out her lutz and flip. She actually ended up winning the 2010 NHK Trophy without a lutz or flip.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Someone mentioned Carolina gave up on lutz because she couldn't execute it well? Example of honest skaters being punished.

I don't recall her ever having edge calls on her jumps. Even so, what's so "honest" about that? The point is to accrue points, not be an edge purist.
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Axel is the only forward take-off jump so in many ways it's different from the rest. Among developing women skaters, double Axel is often considered a big landmark in their growth.

I am curious about Flutz/Lip situation among women as well - my current thesis is that it's harder for women to fix incorrect techniques learned before puberty. And coaches may not teach girls correct technique if they manage to land jumps whatever technique used. (and get paid) When body starts to change, those wrong techniques actually hinder jumps, are hard to shake off, and in turn make skaters more insecure.. (?) It's a theory. Maybe those with experiences can testify.

I can only speak from experience as an ice skating parent. At the younger (Pre-juev and below) the emphasis in on the "total package" so having a good "overall package" negates any wrong edges. Only when you hit the juevenile level is each element actually reviewed/graded for correct form. But by then a child has been skating 4+ years so bad techniques are hard to break.

Also, developing correct technique takes longer so a skater's progress will be slower. All parents may not see this when they compare their child's progress against skaters of a similar level. Let's be honest - ice skating parents are a competitive bunch and don't want anyone improving faster than their child.
 
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