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Thread: Scoring explanation in ladies event for beginners

  1. #16
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    As someone who believes there is a long history of corruption and vote-rigging in the ISU, I have to say this explanation of the CoP is far too biased to be useful. This line alone, "Anyone who has a rudimentary understanding of Code of Points scoring knows that Sotnikova's score was impossible without rigging the results," basically says, "If you don't think that Sotnikova's score was achievable without rigging the results, then you cannot possibly understand the basics of figure skating's CoP," in my opinion. There are people who *do* understand the CoP who feel they can justify her scores. I believe you set up an adversarial tone that negates much of the work you've put into your analysis. You also present several personal opinions as if they are facts - I think that also sabotages your argument.

    I think one of the big problems with some posters on this forum is, if you disagree with their stance on the ISU and the perceived judging issues, then they think you are just mad that your chosen skater didn't win. For me, the issue with judging has absolutely nothing to do with who was favored. The corruption that I perceive taints a fantastic, beautiful sport that I love to watch. If a skater I preferred was unfairly credited to get the win, I would still be upset. When I'm behind an athlete, I want to see them succeed on their own merits. If they lose the big moment, then I congratulate whomever stepped up to take the prize.

    There was an article on thewire dot com entitled "Why People Think Adelina Sotnikova's Figure Skating Gold Medal Was Rigged," that went into a lot of detail about the scores and the choreography and had some revealing charts about the judges scores. While you could tell the writer's slant, I thought most of the analysis presented was unbiased and quite helpful explaining how the scores may have been "rigged."

    I loved Sotnikova's skate. I loved Kim's skate. Kostner was an absolute delight. I hate seeing these magnificent athletes maligned because something seems very wrong at the judges' table. I do believe that whatever is wrong with the judging has been there for a very, VERY long time and comes from the officials at the top. But that's a discussion for a different thread!

    Just to be clear - the above comment is my opinion. It may differ from yours, but they are my conclusions from my research and perspective.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I didn't mention skating skills and transitions because I do sort of understand what is being judged and measured in these categories. By the way, it is interesting to me that Transitions -- the most objective of the five components -- is always the lowest.

    I think what the judges actually do is pretty much the same thing they did in 6.0 scoring. A judge forms an intuitive feeling for the quality of the performance, puts that down under "skating skills," then copies that score for the other four, with a .5 reduction in transitions. Since Skating Skills is listed first, there is a tendency for this score to dominate the rest. Experiments have been done in which a different component was listed first on the judges scorecard, like choreography. This produced different results because the judges looked most carefully at the choreography, before copying that number down four more times.
    I wouldn't say intuitive. Like sanxyin said, skating skills are in fact another technical score. However, this is where it comes down to values again. We don't know what ideal skating skills are until somebody, let's say Patric Chan, shows them as a living example everybody else is compared to. Which gives him everlasting advantage.

  3. #18
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    I guess what I am getting at is this. Here are the top ten in the ladies free skate. In the first column is their actual PCS. In the second column is SS times 8 (includes factoring), followed by the difference.

    Sotnikova 74.41 73,44 +0.97
    Kim 74,50 73.68 +0,82
    Asada 69.68 70.00 -0.32
    Kostner 73.77 73.12 +0.65
    Gold 68.33 68.56 -0.23
    Lipnitskaya 70.06 69.44 +0.62
    Wagner 66.92 67.68 -0.76
    Suzuki 65.78 66.88 -1.10
    Edmunds 60.19 60,32 -0.13
    Marchei 59.68 60,75 +1.07

    So, if the judges want to get it right up to a point or so, all they have to do is take their best shot at skating skills, then sit back and enjoy the show. All the bullet points about intellectual involvement and nuances of the music do not seem to play a roll in the outcome.

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    Here are 10 concise points / generalizations. If you disagree with any of this, please explain:

    1. Adelina's score was impossibly high.

    2. The tech panel was controlled by the Russians. They swapped levels on the step sequences and didn't call Adelina for UR.

    3. The total score comes from short program TES, short program PCS, LP TES, LP PCS.

    4. TES consists of base value, plus or minus grade of execution.

    5. People are making the argument that Adelina won on TES. But if you swap the step sequence levels, ding her for UR, and don't give excessive GOE to her while holding down, Yuna would win TES.

    6. With fair judging, Yuna didn't even need PCS to win. She would have won on TES, and PCS would have made her win bigger.

    7. Yuna had higher BV in SP, but some media only focusing on LP.

    8. Adelina's PCS was in the low 60s, low 60s, low 60s, low 60s, over and over again before Euros.

    9. Adelina's LP PCS in the last month jumped to .... 69 at Euros, and then almost 75 at Olympics.

    10. The media said Yuna's artistic expression was so much better than Adelina, but they were only separated by 0.09 points in PCS.

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    Yuna said after seeing her SP score she knew it's going to be an uphill battle. I am sure she heard of Mao's SP score that night as well.

    Skating last in FS, surrounded by such an audience, she must have been.. oh, I don't even know. And I don't know how she even did it.

    Anyway, here is a scoring explanation I've found in another thread: http://mydearkorea.blogspot.ca/2014/...g-scandal.html

  6. #21
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    What does Mao's SP scores has to do with any of this? If Yuna heard Mao's scores, she had to have seen the performance on a TV back stage, or was told by her coach/team of the 3A fall + no combo.

    I still stand by my view that Yuna doesn't give a sh** (ok that's perhaps a bit too much). She had said it numerous times that she'' rather focus on something that she can control [her performance] instead than focusing on things she cannot control [judges scores].

  7. #22
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    Once again you're interspersing facts with opinion/interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    Here are 10 concise points / generalizations. If you disagree with any of this, please explain:

    1. Adelina's score was impossibly high.
    Her score was very high, but not impossibly so. She delivered lots of technical content and was justly penalized for her one real mistake. Her PCS were higher than I would have given, watching at home, but so were everyone's. Olympic excitement probably boosted everyone's scores. I also grant the possibility that fast, committed skating was much more impressive live than on TV.

    2. The tech panel was controlled by the Russians.
    The technical controller was Russian. The technical specialist was French. The assistant technical specialist was Finnish (with a Russian name). The data entry and replay technicians don't contribute to the actual decisions.

    They swapped levels on the step sequences
    Huh? I believe the top skaters were all aiming for level 4 and that the tech panel called the levels that they saw on the day. I haven't analyzed them in depth, but I know that skaters sometimes leave out steps or don't achieve clear enough edges to get full credit for all their planned features. Same as they sometimes land their jumps perfectly and sometimes fail or are a bit off, not always on the same jump.

    and didn't call Adelina for UR.
    They didn't call Kim for underrotation on the second lutz either. That's the one that stood out to me in real time and on replay, but evidently it looked OK to the tech panel. They get a different angle and I'll defer to their judgment.

    3. The total score comes from short program TES, short program PCS, LP TES, LP PCS.

    4. TES consists of base value, plus or minus grade of execution.
    These are simple facts, thank you. Best to start your explanation here.

    5. People are making the argument that Adelina won on TES. But if you swap the step sequence levels, ding her for UR, and don't give excessive GOE to her while holding down, Yuna would win TES.

    6. With fair judging, Yuna didn't even need PCS to win. She would have won on TES, and PCS would have made her win bigger.
    For tech merit, I just call it as I see it. I wasn't trying to call levels, and in real time the only underrotation I saw worthy of dinging was Kim's lutz. (Sotnikova's 2Lo in the three-jump combo was overrotated enough that I wondered if it were a downgraded triple attempt. I'd ding it for the step out and incorrect amount of rotation, reward for the strong first jump, -2 overall.)

    In real time watching on TV, I gave Kim a total of +18 GOEs and Sotnikova +17.

    I could go back and analyze more, but as soon as the results came up, having counted the number of triples, I understood that Sotnikova won the TES, even if I'd have had her lower on components.

    7. Yuna had higher BV in SP, but some media only focusing on LP.
    Yuna won the SP, albeit narrowly; it's not controversial enough to generate much analysis.

    8. Adelina's PCS was in the low 60s, low 60s, low 60s, low 60s, over and over again before Euros.

    9. Adelina's LP PCS in the last month jumped to .... 69 at Euros, and then almost 75 at Olympics.

    10. The media said Yuna's artistic expression was so much better than Adelina, but they were only separated by 0.09 points in PCS.
    This can be explained by any combination of
    *Sotnikova skating more confidently as the season progressed
    *Sotnikova adding some details to her program that are valued by judges -- as mentioned by Peter Tchernyshev in the IceNetwork article I linked earlier in this thread
    *The championship panels as a whole being more generous to all top skaters than the Grand Prix panels
    *Judges favorably revising their opinion of her skating as they got to see more of her over the season
    *Skating content/speed possibly outweighing artistic expression in judges' assessment of component scores as a whole (I don't know how these two skaters' speed really compared live, but Sotnikova on video looked on par with Kostner and faster than Gold)
    *Deliberate manipulation by Russian/pro-Russian officials

    The answer could be any combination of the above. My first bullet point would be purely objective reason for a deserved increase in PCS. The last one would be purely undeserved. The others represent subjective and psychological factors that are neither morally wrong nor objectively right, but never completely avoidable when dealing with human assessment.

  8. #23
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    Thanks gkelly, a reasoned and civil response even if you disagree with some points.

    Can I ask, who else has scored low 60s, low 60s, low 60s, over and over again, and then suddenly jumped to 75 in two competitions for PCS, even not going clean.
    Is there any precedent?

    You gave many possible explanations, but I think most people realize those numbers are not realistic. Essentially, the judges scored Adelina as almost tied for the best PCS free skate in history. The tv commentators said "Yuna was the better artist, but Adelina won on the jumps, it's all about the jumps"...but then there was only 0.09 difference between the two in PCS, essentially no difference at all. It's obviously incorrect.

    "Overall championship inflation" does not seem correct either, because Yuna and Carolina, among Mao and others, did not see a jump of more than 10 points on their typical PCS, or 5 points from their last event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I guess what I am getting at is this. Here are the top ten in the ladies free skate. In the first column is their actual PCS. In the second column is SS times 8 (includes factoring), followed by the difference.

    Sotnikova 74.41 73,44 +0.97
    Kim 74,50 73.68 +0,82
    Asada 69.68 70.00 -0.32
    Kostner 73.77 73.12 +0.65
    Gold 68.33 68.56 -0.23
    Lipnitskaya 70.06 69.44 +0.62
    Wagner 66.92 67.68 -0.76
    Suzuki 65.78 66.88 -1.10
    Edmunds 60.19 60,32 -0.13
    Marchei 59.68 60,75 +1.07

    So, if the judges want to get it right up to a point or so, all they have to do is take their best shot at skating skills, then sit back and enjoy the show. All the bullet points about intellectual involvement and nuances of the music do not seem to play a roll in the outcome.
    The judges might add another technical entry for skating skills and give GOEs.
    This is not what I long for but it seems logical

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    Quote Originally Posted by usethis2 View Post
    Yuna said after seeing her SP score she knew it's going to be an uphill battle. I am sure she heard of Mao's SP score that night as well.

    Skating last in FS, surrounded by such an audience, she must have been.. oh, I don't even know. And I don't know how she even did it.

    Anyway, here is a scoring explanation I've found in another thread: http://mydearkorea.blogspot.ca/2014/...g-scandal.html
    This blogger is too naïve to know that a toe loop actually takes off forwards, as does almost all other triples. Otherwise you're jam the take-off or take off leaning forwards. But we don't discuss technique on this forum, so I'll stop there...

    Can't really take seriously an explanation from a person who doesn't even seem to understand the technical details of the sport. That is a very revisionist explanation of how these things went down...

    She forgot to talk about the more complicated steps into Sotnikova's Triple Flip, whereas Yuna telegraphed hers across 1/3rd of the rink. She also forgot to mention the choreo out of Sotnikova's triple flip, which helps to up her GOE is counted as a transition and choreo as far as the PCS is concerned. Skaters like Plushenko and Weir did the same thing to help up their PCS and GOE on some of their jumps.

    Same goes for the Triple Lutz, Triple Toe. The toe loop technique on the take-off was flawless and she did choreo and transitions directly into her combination - there was literally no break going into that jump, it was pure attack. She only had like 2 (maybe 3?) crossovers in the lead-up so she technically was a bit better at generating speed leading into that combo than Yuna Kim was (because she did not use nearly as many crossovers as Kim to gain her speed). Yuna Kim did 6 (SIX) crossovers around the curve of the rink and cross-strokes 1/3rd the length of the rink into that combination. That's almost the equivalent of skating around half of the rink doing nothing but crossovers and back cross strokes...

    If going by the criteria for PCS, one has to wonder why Sotnikova was getting such lower PCS to begin with - even before this past weason. Even many junior skaters are hosed in PCS when you look at their programs objectively and score it based on the criteria given. PCS has always been used like the 6.0 Presentation system (which, BTW, had criteria like this but the judges seemed to ignore much of it when giving that score), and IMO a lot of Figure Skating's fan base still has not moved on from the 6.0 mindset. IJS programs are all about math, strategy, and tactics. You have to look at things a bit differently.

  11. #26
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    LOL

    Disgusting judging is disgusting.

    Since when Adelina deserves THE BEST COMPONENT SCORE OF ALL TIME????? (yea, who cares about the 0.09 difference in score)

    Sorry, but this is the biggest joke of figure skating.

    Let me not go any further about her overall score and her decent skating and her inability to interpret music.
    This probably will be my last season as a fan. I' have no one to look forward to after the veterans are retiring.

    bye.

  12. #27
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    Thanks for this thread. Up until the last two posts there has been a really rational tone about this thread that I appreciate given all the hysteria. Just one question: What determines the level of a step sequence? How can one visually differentiate between a level 3 and level 4 step sequence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Procrastinator View Post
    Thanks for this thread. Up until the last two posts there has been a really rational tone about this thread that I appreciate given all the hysteria. Just one question: What determines the level of a step sequence? How can one visually differentiate between a level 3 and level 4 step sequence?
    The number of turns. The amount of footwork you do on one foot across a prescribed length of the rink. Being able to do turns on both feet in ALL (CW/CCW; FWD/BWD) directions. Cleanliness of the turns (Entrance/Exit edges).

    There is nothing about my post that is irrational except for the fact that you probably don't agree with it. That blog post linked is a dubious source at beast because the blogger simply doesn't seem to understand how PCS is scored and how GOE is awarded. How do you judge FW levels by making a GIF of 3 seconds of a FW sequence? How do you judge Jump GOE by completely cutting out the transitions leading into the jumps in a 2 second GIF? It's kind of laughable, but I do admire his passion...

    Lucinda Ruh was one of the best spinners in the world, but she probably would have had trouble getting level 4 on some of her spins simply due to the requirements to get to it, which means a worse spinner could probably have beat her on spins. That's the way the IJS works, like it or not.

    If you still look at programs largely with a 6.0 mindset and admire simpler structure with decent executed jumps and artistry, than who you think should win may be completely different than who really should win based on the criteria for GOE and PCS in a program. Whether we like it or not, ISU and many others simply want to move Figure Skating more from art to Sport, and this judging system rewards bean counting and athletics/difficulty more under this scoring system.

    The large PCS (almost never variating) for veteran skaters were largely vestigial from their legacy and due to precedent set by brilliant past performances.

    I do like how in his GIF of a great Yuna Lutz he had her doing fantastic steps and transitions into it (a solid +3 GOE 3Lz), whereas she just did crossovers straight into it in her FS in Sochi, which was at beast a solid +2... Pretty much cements my point as to why she is still getting the same GOE and PCS for much easier and simpler programs/jumping passes when she was doing amazing things years ago with the performances she was blowing everyone away with... There's a reason why Yuna got to the PCS level she was at, and programs like she performed in Sochi aren't that reason. Giving Yuna lower PCS would have been like giving Michelle Kwan 5.5s for Presentation. Judges just don't do that.

    Hit programs almost always cause a skater's PCS to go up, though. That's why they can keep getting Season's best when the only thing that improved was the jumps while the choreo and everything else stayed the same (yet the PCS continues to rise over the season).

    Lastly, the 2Lo on Sotnikova's last combo was overrotated not underrotated. Not sure if that blogger is bad at counting rotations, but that statement was clearly false. It's clear that she rotated 2.25 rotations in the air and leaned, so she had to step out. Even then, the entire combo has to be taken into account. The 3F-2T of it was great, so there wasn't any precedent to penalize that combination like a fall, or even anything near a fall. The step out has a prescribed GOE penalty and it's weight against the GOE the judges give the element as a whole. Which is why she didn't (and shouldn't have) lost much.

    About Zijun's PCS not going up. It's because her programs aren't that difficult and TBQH she isn't as good of a "skater" as Sotnikova or Gold (she's quite slow especially once she gets past the halfway point). When she improves, her PCS will improve as well.

    Sotnikova's Toe Loop at the back end of that combo, I need a better video to rip off and load into Dartfish to check it.

  14. #29
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    Thanks. I mistakenly called your post irrational because I speed read it and saw something that wasn't there.

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    Some people don't seem to understand that you can't give a graduate level explanation of footwork and step levels to someone who doesn't even know a damn thing about CoP.
    They will immediately go "huh?" tune you out, and not care to learn any more about the scoring.

    You have to reduce it to very simple concepts and generalizations that keep the spirit of the rules.

    Now, whether an explanation follows that spirit or not, is up for debate, but getting too technical isn't any use for beginners.

    (of course, Procrastinator asked, so that's fine, but someone criticized this whole thread earlier, and that's who I'm responding to)

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