Documentary "Nancy/Tonya"

I really liked the IDEA of Tonya, but the reality rarely lived up to it. There was something very slow and methodical in her routines, even when she was technically skating fast. I feel like the go-to excuse for her was always that she wasn't "pretty princess" enough, but grace, posture, lines, musicality aren't merely frivolous judging preferences. They ARE figure skating. And if you can't master them, you'll be rightfully penalized. And additionally, while her jumps were big, they were also often tilted and heavily muscled out, so you can't even compare them to Midori Ito's gorgeous, effortless jumps.

Which is all to say that I think the skating community actually tried with Tonya. I think they DID see her potential, but she just couldn't deliver consistently. In 1991, they proved they were willing to reward her when she brought the goods. But from 1992 on, she rarely did, and so her skating fell off, not because everyone "hated" her for not being pretty, but because her programs were lackluster and her commitment wasn't there. But to this day, I don't think Tonya has admitted that to herself. She looks at 1994, a year where she should've been kicked off the Olympic team and then disqualified during the free skate, and instead sees a vicious figure skating association who only let her compete because they knew she wouldn't win and a judging panel that gave her a later skating placement just to screw up her timing.

As for the question of who would've won the gold under the new judging system...I believe Oksana had 3 two-footed landings across her two programs that year, that I would imagine would've had her in 2nd.

I liked Tonya's maverick spirit and doing it her way (I want to skate to ZZ Top!) and daring to challenge the "pretty princess" image of figure skating. Twenty years later, we still have that "princess" image (just look at Gracie's recent repackaging).

However you slice it though, she's both a victim and an instigator of her own downfall, due to her abusive, rootless, upbringing and poor judgement. I just hope she can find redemption through her new family and raising her son in a loving manner and not repeat the cycle of abuse.

liliana said:

I really liked the IDEA of Tonya, but the reality rarely lived up to it. There was something very slow and methodical in her routines, even when she was technically skating fast. I feel like the go-to excuse for her was always that she wasn't "pretty princess" enough, but grace, posture, lines, musicality aren't merely frivolous judging preferences. They ARE figure skating. And if you can't master them, you'll be rightfully penalized. And additionally, while her jumps were big, they were also often tilted and heavily muscled out, so you can't even compare them to Midori Ito's gorgeous, effortless jumps.

Which is all to say that I think the skating community actually tried with Tonya. I think they DID see her potential, but she just couldn't deliver consistently. In 1991, they proved they were willing to reward her when she brought the goods. But from 1992 on, she rarely did, and so her skating fell off, not because everyone "hated" her for not being pretty, but because her programs were lackluster and her commitment wasn't there. But to this day, I don't think Tonya has admitted that to herself. She looks at 1994, a year where she should've been kicked off the Olympic team and then disqualified during the free skate, and instead sees a vicious figure skating association who only let her compete because they knew she wouldn't win and a judging panel that gave her a later skating placement just to screw up her timing.

As for the question of who would've won the gold under the new judging system...I believe Oksana had 3 two-footed landings across her two programs that year, that I would imagine would've had her in 2nd.

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Yes!

You have beautifully expressed what I have felt about Tonya for some time. She had the raw talent, but it was she herself who failed to do it justice most of the time. And as you point out, she was supported by the skating community, because they saw her quality. I'm sure they would have been thrilled to have such a skater continue to thrive.

PullingForSasha said:

What I never got was the treatment of Nancy. In our psycho-media country, everybody suddenly turned against her for what exactly.....? Oh yes. They wanted her give the MOUSE that medal to wear. Over my DEAD body if it was mine. As a HUGE Baiul fan, her comment about Oksana's crying didn't bother me at all.
Out of the two, it is Nancy, the victim, who has a very mellow attitude about it now, wishing Tonya her best, while Tonya is winy, rude, lying, and insulting.

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Thumbs up! Re: the Disney parade -- it was a tactless and stupid thing to say, and maybe mildly offensive -- but I agree that if you see the whole thing, she says that over putting the medal(s) on, she really did not appear to be saying the parade itself was corny, or Disney was corny, or Mickey was corny -- but the medal wearing in that context. But all that is remembered is that she said the parade was corny.

The makeup comment before the medal ceremony was a bit snarky and uncalled-for. Though I can understand her nerves were frayed. But it was snarky.

PullingForSasha said:

Tonya was my first favorite skater, but let's not let Tonya lie her way out of it:
When a company produces a pen, the ink varies from batch to batch similar to a cake mix. Each vat of ink is just a little bit different.
The FBI had her NAILED. They found HER fingerprints on the pen, in the trash with the schedule - The ink from the pen was an exact chemical match for the ink on the paper schedule.
There is no question that she was at least involved with ALL of the planning.
All the above were the facts of the case back then, from the news. :disapp:

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Indeed.

Olympia said:

I've always thought that Nancy was done in by her cheekbones. She looks so patrician, like Katharine Hepburn, that people tend to forget that she was not middle class but working class. Her family was not financially privileged. I know that a lot of people found her snobbish, but I think that she was probably a combination of shy and guarded, especially after the press descended on her the way they did. Also, watching her parents react in this and other interviews, I suspect that they probably taught to be a "nice girl," never to show her feelings, and that was the way she proceeded in life. (The few times she broke that rule, in front of an open mike, she paid for for years afterward in the court of public opinion.) I'm not saying she was a saint--in fact she may be or have been unlikeable--but we've all made remarks we ought to be ashamed of. Some people immediately react unfavorably to a person with a seemingly impermeable facade and want to see something peel the facade away. I also think that we have become used to seeing celebrities reveal their innermost thoughts in televised therapy interviews, and we feel vaguely let down when the celebrity involved won't play along.

In any case, Nancy couldn't help the fact that Tonya came across as more of a scrapper because of her background and temperament. In the skating world, actually Nancy was more like Tonya than she was like Kristi (the daughter of a well-to-do dentist) or Rachael Flatt (the only child of two successful scientists, a biochemical engineer and a molecular biologists). The idea that somehow Nancy is the sort of person who would benefit from being taken down a peg or two is contradicted by the actual situation.

I'm not saying any of this to start an argument, but rather because I remember too many news articles from the time (including a particularly provocative one in Ms. Magazine) that seemed to imply that this incident was the natural outcome of a street kid fighting for her place in the sun among the prom queens. Nancy was not a prom queen; she just looked like one.

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I've never been a Nancy fan, but I agree. She just doesn't have one of those personalities that translates well to TV. She seems afflicted with a bit of "resting b face" syndrome. Her voice has a bit of a whiny/nasally quality and she's just not one of those bubbly outgoing types.

The pretty princess image her team cultivated to win her points with the judges is a bit of a double edged sword. When the public is feeling good about you, you're beautiful and graceful, but when they aren't, you're stuck up and elitist. The same thing has happened with Witt, Cohen, Gold, etc

I've never met Nancy and she might be "unlikable" for all I know, but I think she has got a bad rap rooted in the same sort of envy and double standards that probably fueled the attack on her to begin with. I've heard quite a few skaters who skated with her on the show circuit describe her as sweet, funny and a good friend.

In reality, like most of us, she's probably somewhere between the perfect princess and the ice queen who dissed Mickey.

Olympia said:

Yes!

You have beautifully expressed what I have felt about Tonya for some time. She had the raw talent, but it was she herself who failed to do it justice most of the time. And as you point out, she was supported by the skating community, because they saw her quality. I'm sure they would have been thrilled to have such a skater continue to thrive.

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I agree with these comments also. Tonya had so much raw talent, but it just seemed as though she was unwilling to work on the areas of her skating which were lacking (I'm not talking about clothes, but line and choreography), while when Nancy had to learn to develop as a skater, she was willing to. Tonya decided she did not need to do this, so when she had trouble with her jumps, there was a lot lacking. It's sad that she took this as a rejection of herself and her background, rather than a need to improve her skating. From what I've seen, many people in the skating community saw how gifted she was and tried to support her. There just seems to be a tendency to cast blame on everyone else, and an unwillingness, or inability to see the support she did have.

What was telling to me was her comments about the short program in the 94 Olympics, when she was given a break by the referee and allowed to re-skate her program later, that she complained about having to wait and that she got cold and stiff - ! It seems like until she's able to take responsibility for the way things happened in her skating life, she'll never be able to let go of the bitterness. It's sad...I can see how her upbringing affected her, but hopefully there will be a point when she can learn...

Yes, I appreciated that Scott Hamilton pointed out that getting a later skate placement through her own lack of preparation was actually an unfair advantage. She gamed the system and won, temporarily. It was only when her LP was mediocre that she decided it was because they made her wait so long.

One thing that they also breezed by super fast was that she was supposed to skate in a regional competition in order to earn her way to Nationals in 1994. But a death threat against her was called in so the USFSA gave her a bye to Nationals. Just...an interesting and somewhat fortuitous turn of events there.

liliana said:

Yes, I appreciated that Scott Hamilton pointed out that getting a later skate placement through her own lack of preparation was actually an unfair advantage. She gamed the system and won, temporarily. It was only when her LP was mediocre that she decided it was because they made her wait so long.

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And when Tonya complained that skating last was the source of her poor performance, I was waiting for her to say, "But that's nothing to the trouble this situation caused Josée Chouinard, who was forced to skate right away in my place or she would have to default." But Tonya didn't say a word about Josée. This is a woman who seems incapable of seeing anyone else's needs or viewpoint, and that's very revealing to me. I will never forget the deer-in-the-headlights look on poor Josée's face that night, and I'll always wonder whether she could have done better if she had had a more predictable path to her turn on the ice. Yet another example of collateral damage in Tonya's skating career.

Olympia said:

And when Tonya complained that skating last was the source of her poor performance, I was waiting for her to say, "But that's nothing to the trouble this situation caused Josée Chouinard, who was forced to skate right away in my place or she would have to default."

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This reminds how pleasantly surprised I was when Plushenko pulled out of this Olympics, that the next skater still started when he was originally supposed to.

I thought that was ridiculous that they didn't do it the same way back at Lillehammer if she was going to be allowed to skate later. Seems like that would've been the obvious move rather than what they did.

So while Tonya was being dragged through the mud, did they mention when Nancy was having an affair with her married manager?
Thought not....

After watching it, I can say that I wouldn't mind having a beer and do karaoke with Tonya. She's more approachable and seems to be more fun to be around. Nancy is a stick in the mud, no one wants to be near her. Her energy sucks.

Dragged through the mud? They were talking about KILLING Nancy. I for one do not see much of a comparison between THAT and Nancy, who had a few open mic moments. Tonya and Jeff made a PORN for God's sakes! There is no comparison whatsoever between these two human beings.

LongTimeLurker said:

So while Tonya was being dragged through the mud, did they mention when Nancy was having an affair with her married manager?
Thought not....

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FlattFan said:

After watching it, I can say that I wouldn't mind having a beer and do karaoke with Tonya. She's more approachable and seems to be more fun to be around. Nancy is a stick in the mud, no one wants to be near her. Her energy sucks.

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Nancy certainly rarely comes across as warm. She seemed a lot more comfortable in that final piece with Costas, though. However, she has evidently inspired loyalty from people who worked with her, like the Scotvolds and Paul Wylie, who speak so highly of her, so that says a lot to me. I don't hear anyone speaking warmly of Tonya, even her former coaches who were complimentary of her talents but not so much about her behavior in general.

I personally wouldn't want to have a beer with Tonya because I wouldn't trust anything she would have to say, not even "good morning" on a beautiful day.

New poster here! I've been reading for a while, but finally got the courage to chime in.
I remember this incident so clearly, and now, having watched the documentary as well as "Price of Gold," I have to say that I'm firmly on 'team Nancy.'
Tonya was a great skater and her jumps were amazing, but to me it's clear from watching the interviews that she's a manipulator and seemingly incapable of feeling remorse for her actions and the effect they had on Nancy. She seemed to project a lot of her insecurities onto Nancy ("She looked at me like I was trash," etc), and I think it says a lot that even some of her childhood friends believe she knew about the plan beforehand at the very least.
Nancy, I feel, was always miscast by the media. She was beautiful and with those high cheekbones she looked like an upper class beauty instead of a working class one, which she was. She also wasn't an ice princess herself, she just learned to portray that image when she was on the ice. And, as she's said many times, she was shy. I think those things, combined with her athleticism and clear desire to be the best at her sport made her come across as cold and aloof to some. She wasn't a bubbly Mary Lou. And I think the way she handled the scrutiny and media attention during those weeks and came out with two incredible performances - that takes some serious character. I mean, can you imagine being attacked by people linked to your fiercest competitor 6 weeks before the biggest competition of your life, rehabbing the injury within weeks, having to skate with and see the person most probably involved, and cameras are following you everywhere? It's mind blowing, what she accomplished. And I thought she came across incredibly well in her interview with Bob Costas. For someone who is naturally guarded and shy, it can take years to learn how to come across so warmly in a setting as unnatural as an interview.
Anyway, that's my two cents. I'm longwinded, apologies!

raineydaze said:

New poster here! I've been reading for a while, but finally got the courage to chime in.
I remember this incident so clearly, and now, having watched the documentary as well as "Price of Gold," I have to say that I'm firmly on 'team Nancy.'
Tonya was a great skater and her jumps were amazing, but to me it's clear from watching the interviews that she's a manipulator and seemingly incapable of feeling remorse for her actions and the effect they had on Nancy. She seemed to project a lot of her insecurities onto Nancy ("She looked at me like I was trash," etc), and I think it says a lot that even some of her childhood friends believe she knew about the plan beforehand at the very least.
Nancy, I feel, was always miscast by the media. She was beautiful and with those high cheekbones she looked like an upper class beauty instead of a working class one, which she was. She also wasn't an ice princess herself, she just learned to portray that image when she was on the ice. And, as she's said many times, she was shy. I think those things, combined with her athleticism and clear desire to be the best at her sport made her come across as cold and aloof to some. She wasn't a bubbly Mary Lou. And I think the way she handled the scrutiny and media attention during those weeks and came out with two incredible performances - that takes some serious character. I mean, can you imagine being attacked by people linked to your fiercest competitor 6 weeks before the biggest competition of your life, rehabbing the injury within weeks, having to skate with and see the person most probably involved, and cameras are following you everywhere? It's mind blowing, what she accomplished. And I thought she came across incredibly well in her interview with Bob Costas. For someone who is naturally guarded and shy, it can take years to learn how to come across so warmly in a setting as unnatural as an interview.
Anyway, that's my two cents. I'm longwinded, apologies!

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Thanks for your post raineydaze and welcome to GS!

I was laughing when Tonya was singing the theme song to Ice Castles at a karaoke bar

Welcome to GS, Raineydaze!

A lot of people who don't know Nancy seem to dislike her intensely because of the way she comes across. Having known a few similarly self-contained characters, I don't find her as off-putting myself. And then I always liked her skating, which had a smoothness and power to it that wasn't really as pretty princess as all that. We tend to forget that for a skater, she was rather tall and big, being 5'4" in a world of sprites (except for Tonya). Next to tiny Kristi, Nancy looked statuesque.

In fact, the pretty princess at those Olympics was actually Oksana. She skated to Broadway standards and actually wore pink fluff. It suited her, and there's nothing wrong with that, though I preferred her short program to Swan Lake. (That program is a humdinger! So exciting.)

The one thing that did distress me about Nancy was that she could easily veer into headcase territory, as she did at 1993 Worlds. (And she actually did a bit in the long program in the 1992 Albertville Olympics after doing an exceedingly solid short program.) The fact that she didn't crumble or even falter at the 1994 Olympics was thus even more laudable. The pressure on her must have been nonstop and extremely intense to a degree we can't possibly imagine. Just the sound of all those cameras going off would have sent me into a swivet!

But you're never going to please everyone. Some people will find her cold, while some will fault her for her two or three snarky remarks about Oksana and Disney. Others (as one poster did here) will find that her conduct with Salomon before his first marriage ended makes her fair game for criticism for the rest of recorded time. That's life. For myself, I find her interesting to listen to in terms of the perspective she's clearly developed over the past two decades. I thought I'd find this program exploitive, and the fact that it isn't is for me largely due to Nancy's input. She could have made many digs at Tonya, and she refrained from doing so, even expressing admiration for her skating. She emerged very well from this, I thought.

I understand where Tonya is coming from. Don't get me wrong, I think she's totally guilty. When you are questioned and prodded and made fun of your whole life, it's hard not to be defensive. That said, I'm not competing with the girl, I think she's more fun to be around.

Nancy is so unlikable, it's ridiculous that she's on TV. I don't find her skating particularly interesting. She's like an uglier step sister of the Finn girls. Similar, but uglier look. Similar, but worse, stroking and edge. Similar in aloofness, but her demeanor veers into unlikable territory, whereas Laura and Kiira are in the neutral zone.

I don't think it's possible for Tonya to find redemption in the public eyes anymore. It's ridiculous that someone like Nancy has 2 Olympics medals. Talk about being in the right place at the right time. She's just not very good.

And yet Tonya was there too and couldn't manage a medal either time.

I just find nothing likeable about Tonya. She's delusional, mean-spirited, bitter, and a poor sport. She was constantly playing the victim to try to get an edge and in 20 years, she's clearly not gained one ounce of perspective. I'll always remember someone pointing out that things like her lace mishap just don't happen with world class athletes. Yet with Tonya it happened 4 times. All with the benefit of getting her better skate times. Then she conveniently gets to skip a regional qualifying event because of a "death threat". It'll never be hard for me to believe she'd go the next step towards sabotaging her competitors.

And on the skating front, I find most of her jumps to be almost painful looking. It's like she could rarely find her landing edge so her jumps had this flat-footed, jarring impact.